Home   Help Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8   Go Down
 
Author Topic: CHI-POR  (Read 16950 times)
phiboy207
Starter
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 929


« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2008, 09:57:52 am »

Quote from: "Drexler-Roy"
Phiboy per 48 min stats are a losing argument as a player who plays limited minutes looks better.BTW how many fouls does Diop get per 48
Mutombo loves playing in Houston and was planning on retiring but came back for team loyalty.If you want to sign Kwame Brown go right ahead as Laker fans will laugh their a$$es off.Mihm hasn't played in TWO YEARS due to injuries.Even if now healthy what does he have left?
Diop averaged about 7 minutes less than Przybilla, and Przybilla would have averaged less minutes if Oden was healthy - prolly about the same as Diop's.  I agree that Per-48s are not accurate for players that are legit NBA starters, but as a way to normalize stats for players who should see limited minutes - as in the case of Diop and Przybilla - they work just fine.  It's not a losing argument - they are very similar players.
Mutombo is still building a hospital (or whatever his current public works project is) in Africa.  Even $1/2 mil more goes a long way in Africa.
Why would the Lakers laugh?  Because someone gave Brown a contract he was worth and played him the minutes he was worth when they gave him a contract over the MLE and started him?  Sounds like they should be crying - not laughing.
No, Przybilla is still replaceable.  No matter how much POR fans like him, there are plenty of players that could be had every off-season that can approximate his production.
Quote from: "Drexler-Roy"
Hinrich will not neccesarily shoot better 3pt% in Portland pure speculation on your part.Nor was he top 10 in assists.His assist to turnover ration was an average 2.88 to 1.Not bad but not great.Named one year defense SECOND TEAM.Not what I consider All League D
It's pure speculation on any fan's or GM's part to suggest that any player would continue to shoot even on par with his career stats, but it's a safe assumption for the most part.  It is a safe speculation to say that a player who has never had an interior threat would shoot better from outside if he went to a situation where he would.  The best offensive interior player Hinrich has played is...who?  Darius Songalia?
Hinrich may have only :roll: made the 2nd team All-D, but it would still qualify him as the best perimeter defender on most of the teams in NBA - including POR.  Hinrich has also been in the top 10 in total assists twice in his career and once in per game average.  And this is with noted ball hog Ben Gordon playing a lot of minutes next to him.  It would be safe speculation to say that if he went to a strong 3-PT % team as even the 2nd perimeter option, then even this would go up.  He is a better passer than you give him credit for.
Quote from: "Drexler-Roy"
I do not fight accquiring him just the price you are asking
OK, fine.  What would you suggest?  I have to put some stipulations on the deal so that it would be realistic though.  I don't care to talk about deals that a fan might like, but a GM would laugh @.  
POR has been rumored to be looking for a bona fide star, so you cannot kill the one of the things that team trading one would look for: cap relief.  Hence, no LaFrentz and even Jones is ?-able, those contracts have too much value to trade this early in the off-season.
Also, POR would not want to give up any real asset that could land said star.  Prospects would have to go to CHI, but overseas prospects are losing value due to the Vasquez and Splitter situations (to a lesser degree, even Khryapa's) and draft picks lose significant value once they've been exercised, so they are more likely to be included than current prospects that have shown some ability: Sergio, Jack, Webster, and Outlaw (if you still consider him a prospect - I do).  Hence, if the value is even somewhat similar, use draft picks and overseas prospects not on the current roster over prospects that currently are on the roster.  (The added benefit here is that you aren't counting on some 1st year player to step up if you don't land the star.  One of those things that fans might do, but GMs would cringe @.)
For CHI, you have to include at least 2 prospects (current value of 2nd tier PGs from Bibby deal): at least 1 that yields a reasonable assumption for an inside scorer - their most glaring need.  The #13 overall would do for this.  
CHI does not want to give up anything more than Hinrich outside a some end of the roster-types for salary cap purposes (aka, do not expand the deal).  They have been very close to elite in the East status as recently as a year ago so they aren't looking to dismantle and rebuild - only open minutes for Rose.  Do not include a Deng or Nocioni, it would really only serve to kill the deal.
The deal also has to be good enough that CHI would do the deal as opposed to their plan A which would be to dump Gordon.  Gordon isn't really even a good defender and a very streaky volume shooter so he would be the #1 player CHI would look to dump.  A G rotation of Rose / Hinrich / Hughes and a little of Thabo is a solid and would be preferred to trading Hinrich without getting proper value.  Getting decent value for Hinrich might convince CHI to leverage that asset and see if they could give Gordon another year by letting him sign the tender.  Anyway, you can't look to steal Hinrich.
So, whatcha got?
Logged

Drexler-Roy
All-Star
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3716



« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2008, 10:11:34 am »

Greenwing a resigned Gordon,Nocioni and Hinrich swap even if it included Livingston would mean a $15-16million million salary for Magette.Another player would need to be added.Clippers make no such trade for several reasons 1)They will probably be looking for younger players with higher potential 2)such a trade ties up their cap for years 3)none of those players are likely to get much better over the next several years
 Greenwing from Portlands end a trade for the 7th pick would be more likely than one from Chicago as Portland has more young assets the Clippers would be interested in,those assets have lower salaries and Portland could toss in the 13th pick.So a trade involving say Sergio,Jack and the 13th for the 7th and filler(say Mobley or Tim Thomas)) would be more appealing to the Clippers who could still trade Magette for picks and players
Portlands options are many.I think Hinrich would be a good COMPLEMENTARY player for Portland and would think a reasonable trade could be worked out.However denigrating Portlands players does you no good as we know their worth and we will not do a trade which is lopsided against us.The trade originally posed at the start of this post is way too lopsided to seriously consider.It is essentially a 4-1 trade as Simmons would not even make Portlands roster.Hinrich is not going to bring you a higher draft pick by himself unless you take on another bad contract ala Hughes and even then you won't get much better than Portlands because teams in with those picks are in the position of wanting younger talent
Logged

Greenwing wrote
Finally, I'm going to state this right now.  The Bulls will have a better record next season that the Portland Trailblazers.
Portland record 54-28
Chicago record 41-41
Jason Rubin
a.k.a. greenwing
MVP
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10809



WWW
« Reply #77 on: June 08, 2008, 10:33:34 am »

Looks like you don't really understand the rules about trading salaries.  You're completely neglecting the 7th pick's salary in that trade.  Maggette would not be making 15-16 million.  And you know what?  At 29, no one is going to pay him that much.  To be able to return home to play with his hometown team at 12 mil a year (most likely front-loaded), I'm sure he'd jump at the opportunity.
Logged

phiboy207
Starter
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 929


« Reply #78 on: June 08, 2008, 10:38:00 am »

Quote from: "Drexler-Roy"
Portlands options are many.I think Hinrich would be a good COMPLEMENTARY player for Portland and would think a reasonable trade could be worked out.However denigrating Portlands players does you no good as we know their worth and we will not do a trade which is lopsided against us.The trade originally posed at the start of this post is way too lopsided to seriously consider.It is essentially a 4-1 trade as Simmons would not even make Portlands roster.Hinrich is not going to bring you a higher draft pick by himself unless you take on another bad contract ala Hughes and even then you won't get much better than Portlands because teams in with those picks are in the position of wanting younger talent
Once again, you underrate Hinrich.  A team's starting PG, best perimeter defender, and #2 perimeter playmaker would be more than a complimentary piece.  He would be a core player.
Either way, your ducking the ?.  The stipulations have been set out.  What is your suggestion?
Logged

Drexler-Roy
All-Star
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3716



« Reply #79 on: June 08, 2008, 11:46:04 am »

Phiboy Hinrich would be a complementary piece for Portland.He would AT BEST be the FOURTH leading scorer and more likely the FIFTH OR SIXTH
On a per game average Hinrich has never been top ten in assists(and with a player like Roy in the backcourt look for his assists to drop).In Portland if Fernandez is 75% of what is expected he's ahead of Hinrich as a perimeter player so that drops Hinrich to third best on the perimeter alone.Hinrich is not a core player for the Bulls either or you would not be looking to trade him
I've told you my offer LaFrentz +13(could add a 2nd rounder but that's it) if not acceptable thats fine Portland will look elswhere we do not need Hinrich that bad and will not overpay for him.You keep Hinrich.Commit $9million per for a backup point.Along with Hughes ,Gordon and Rose you'll be committing $30-35nillion per year to  just those 4 players for years
 As I've said(and given examples) in earlier posts there are other options that may be just as good if not betterHell Portland waits one year we sign Ben Gordon to a max deal and give up no player for him.Of course you could sign him to that $10million+per year and move those 4 players to $40million per ruining your cap space.Add Dengs and Nocionis contracts and your salcap space is almost gone.Resign Thomas and Noah and your space is gone for years and Bulls are mired in mediocrity.In the meantime without any trades and Portland is top tier with cap space for the next 2 years to land whatever pieces they need
Logged

Greenwing wrote
Finally, I'm going to state this right now.  The Bulls will have a better record next season that the Portland Trailblazers.
Portland record 54-28
Chicago record 41-41
phiboy207
Starter
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 929


« Reply #80 on: June 08, 2008, 01:25:53 pm »

Quote from: "Drexler-Roy"
Phiboy Hinrich would be a complementary piece for Portland.He would AT BEST be the FOURTH leading scorer and more likely the FIFTH OR SIXTH
On a per game average Hinrich has never been top ten in assists(and with a player like Roy in the backcourt look for his assists to drop).In Portland if Fernandez is 75% of what is expected he's ahead of Hinrich as a perimeter player so that drops Hinrich to third best on the perimeter alone.Hinrich is not a core player for the Bulls either or you would not be looking to trade him
Hinrich's D alone would be a core player.  SAS have Duncan, Parker, and Manu, yet you think they believe Bowen is simply a compliment?  No, he does the things that allow others to be better, as Hinrich does.  And, yes, more talent = more assists in all cases.  Especially if his back court mate is unselfish.  Bibby's assists went up when he was paired with Johnson; Hinrich's will go up when paired with Roy.
Look, you could take some unproven 1st year, put unrealistic expectations on him, and pray he pans out.  It might work or it might not.  But that's the sort of thing that usually blows up in your face - Fernandez could bust, prove that he can't play PG in the NBA, is incompatible with Roy, or even simply decides that he will make more $$$ by staying overseas.  In this deal, you get as close to as sure a thing as you could hope for without touching any really valuable asset.
Quote from: "Drexler-Roy"
I've told you my offer LaFrentz +13(could add a 2nd rounder but that's it) if not acceptable thats fine Portland will look elswhere we do not need Hinrich that bad and will not overpay for him.You keep Hinrich.Commit $9million per for a backup point.Along with Hughes ,Gordon and Rose you'll be committing $30-35nillion per year to  just those 4 players for years
As stated, it simply isn't realistic - for POR.  It looks like a fan trade - not a GM trade.  To land a legitimate star, the entry fee would be a large expiring contract for a player who wouldn't refuse the deal so as to not eliminate his Bird Rights; the makeup of the package of prospects that are given determine if you walk away with the prize or not.  LaFrentz is the really the only contract that POR has that would serve as that entry fee.  Dumping it now basically means that your going with your current roster + whoever you dump it for (Hinrich in this case) for the next 3-4 years.  For a star, it makes sense; for a 2nd tier PG, eh, not so much.  If the team proves that it isn't NBA Title worthy, then the GM has basically proved that he should be fired.  Fans don't have their livelihood based on this trade, GMs do. Hence, why I put into the stipulation that LaFrentz shouldn't be in the deal.
As to the comments about CHI, once again, don't make decisions for them.  I'm sure that CHI would be fine with dumping Gordon - a problem in that he's butted heads many x with the FO while asking for a lot of $$$, but he's a 1 dimensional shooter with a streaky shot.  Another option is to trade him elsewhere.  Teams come out the woodwork if a player like Hinrich is on the block for too long and I'm sure that teams that actually realize that Hinrich is better than you believe would step in and take him.  Watching good teams getting good players that your team should have gotten on the cheap is a fireable offense in an NBA FO.  Not saying it'd happen here, but it wouldn't be a W on KP stat sheet either.
Quote from: "Drexler-Roy"
As I've said(and given examples) in earlier posts there are other options that may be just as good if not betterHell Portland waits one year we sign Ben Gordon to a max deal and give up no player for him.Of course you could sign him to that $10million+per year and move those 4 players to $40million per ruining your cap space.Add Dengs and Nocionis contracts and your salcap space is almost gone.Resign Thomas and Noah and your space is gone for years and Bulls are mired in mediocrity.In the meantime without any trades and Portland is top tier with cap space for the next 2 years to land whatever pieces they need
You shown many times that you really don't understand what cap room means or what is realistic in the eyes of a NBA GM.  Right now, you don't have enough cap room next year to give a max deal to anyone without giving compensation nor enough this year to even sign an RFA to an offer sheet (you'll have to work out an SNT for any RFA).  Even so, I would imagine that if a team really wanted to give Gordon 10+ mil / yr, then CHI would simply walk away.  It isn't worth paying a headache that much.
Here is reality: NBA GMs don't give up the rights to premium draft picks for backups; NBA GMs don't give up All-Stars for a couple of journeymen/backup types and mid-1st draft picks; NBA GMs don't work for 3 years to get cap room simply to give it up without getting a bona fide All-Star in return.  These are some realities that you've seen to absolutely miss in your options and examples.  All I'm asking for is something that is actually realistic, and I've given stipulations on what is realistic.
Logged

Drexler-Roy
All-Star
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3716



« Reply #81 on: June 08, 2008, 02:52:06 pm »

Phiboy you don't understand Portlands situation.Portland would LIKE to upgrade at the point but is not desperate to do so.Hinrich is a 12ppg 6.3apg 41% fg player.He is a good defender but not on Bowens level.Bowen is a 4 or 5 time FIRST TEAM ALL DEFENSE and has finished as one of the  TOP VOTE GETTERS FOR DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR.Hinrich is not in that class .
 Fernandez has announced he is coming over. As I said if he is only 75% of expected he's more valuable to Portland than Hinrich.Roy can and has played the point. So they can easily be paired in the backcourt.
 You also say you are not asking for a valuable asset.I beg to differ.I've told you several times Pryzbilla is seen as important to this team.His interior defense and rebounding alone make him valuable.The fact that he will be coming off the bench means he will be anchoring the defense when Oden isn't in the game.He will also be Odens mentor helping to teach NBA defense and rebounding.If Portland were to trade Pryz we could easily receive a first round pick from him.
The first you ask for also holds value.It can be traded along with other assets to move up in the draft.Without giving up either Pryzbilla or Blake I could see Portland moving up high enough to draft Westbrook whose defense is said to be very good(maybe as good as Hinrichs).As I asked Greenwing earlier name a trade involving Hinrich that brings in a first higher(or even close to ) than Portlands
 Cap room means options either in trade or free agency.In trade I cite the Charlotte trade last years draft for Jason Richardson.In free agency there will be better players than Hinrich available.However if able to obtain a good COMPLEMENTARY(which all Hinrich is in Portland) player when your roster is already basically set you can use the expirings to get a sure deal.
 Portland will not overpay.If need be Portland can wait until the trade deadline and use LaFrentz expiring to bring in a player then.Portland has many options Chicago fewer.If you do not want my offer of LaFrentz+13 fine I'm not willing to accept your offer either.Trade Hinrich or keep him. Realize though that between his stats and contract he will not bring in what you are asking
Logged

Greenwing wrote
Finally, I'm going to state this right now.  The Bulls will have a better record next season that the Portland Trailblazers.
Portland record 54-28
Chicago record 41-41
JoseJ
Benchwarmer
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 342



« Reply #82 on: June 08, 2008, 04:08:00 pm »

Hinrich isn't that much better than Blake, he's better but not by a lot. Hinrich was a B- level PG...now he fell off to a C+ level.  Blake was your typical C level PG, but has improved close to a C+.

Both guys aren't starting PG's you want unless you have a Celtics or Laker like team where average PG's like Rondo and Fisher could look good.
Logged


Drexler-Roy
All-Star
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3716



« Reply #83 on: June 08, 2008, 04:25:44 pm »

Jose thank you for agreeing with me. According to Phiboy Hinrichs one time on the second team all defense makes him a player who would be a core member for the Blazers.Nevermind the 41%fg shooting,nevermind the only slightly above average assist totals and nevermind the fact that in Portland he would only be the 5th or 6th leading scorer on the team he would be a core member
Logged

Greenwing wrote
Finally, I'm going to state this right now.  The Bulls will have a better record next season that the Portland Trailblazers.
Portland record 54-28
Chicago record 41-41
Jason Rubin
a.k.a. greenwing
MVP
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 10809



WWW
« Reply #84 on: June 08, 2008, 04:58:02 pm »

Quote from: "Drexler-Roy"
Jose thank you for agreeing with me. According to Phiboy Hinrichs one time on the second team all defense makes him a player who would be a core member for the Blazers.Nevermind the 41%fg shooting,nevermind the only slightly above average assist totals and nevermind the fact that in Portland he would only be the 5th or 6th leading scorer on the team he would be a core member


You do realize that out of the teams that need point guards (like Portland), Portland is one of the few not being mentioned in trade rumors with the Bulls.  Why?  Because you guys have nothing to offer that you'd be willing to part with and your draft pick is late compared to other suitors.  Why don't you just give up trying to trade Hinrich to your team while badmouthing him to try to lower his value.  If you dislike the guy so much, you wouldn't want him on your team.  Hence, you are a hypocrite.
Logged

nester66
Star
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1633



« Reply #85 on: June 08, 2008, 05:09:10 pm »

Fine with me, don't want him anyway. Save the money for next offseason when we will be a legit player in free agency and have huge cap space with a great team to lure top stars.

Chicago values Hinrich way more then Portland does.
Logged

Drexler-Roy
All-Star
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3716



« Reply #86 on: June 08, 2008, 05:35:58 pm »

Greenwing the original trade proposal in this thread was by a Chicago fan not by me nor any other Blazer fan.As to my badmouthing him cite one stat about Hinrich I cited that was false. Did he last season average less than 12ppg?Yes Did he shoot 41%from the field?Yes.Is his contract sizable?I believe$9million per year is sizable and it runs for 3 more years.Yes I have read that there is interest in Hinrich from several teams but a)none have mentioned what they are offering in trade(such as their draft pick) and b)most of those I've heard interested in Hinrich have worse draft picks than Portland. I have been consistent in what I think Hinrich is worth to Portland and stated why I would prefer to keep the players that were asked for in exchange.Post this trade in the Blazers forum and I guarantee it will be OVERWHELMINGLY repulsed by Blazer fans.
 Speaking of badmouthing read Phiboys comments about the Blazer players involved.According to him both are lucky to be in the NBA and it is just amazing that Portland started them(and won too).Phiboy says his trade proposal is based on last seasons Bibby trade where it was 2 players who have never been regular starters and one who was(but so far in decline he hardly played after the trade) and a second.Of course after i pointed this out suddenly Hinrich>>>>>Bibby and Bibby is suddenly on his last legs and out of the league
Logged

Greenwing wrote
Finally, I'm going to state this right now.  The Bulls will have a better record next season that the Portland Trailblazers.
Portland record 54-28
Chicago record 41-41
nester66
Star
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1633



« Reply #87 on: June 08, 2008, 05:40:44 pm »

Espn's trade machine said Hinrich made 11.25 million. Those numbers are wrong? Either way, would you trade for billups or hinrich first? They make almost the same money. I know my pick.
Logged

youngrazzle7
MVP
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6273


« Reply #88 on: June 08, 2008, 05:47:12 pm »

Billups is older so I'd trade him first, but he's a way better player than Hinrich.
Logged

Bulls / Bills / Marlins / Noles
ben gordon was a guy he trusted and always passed to when he was open.  those other guys are not the kind of shooters i'm talking about, they are more mid range guys.  how many times did we see rose get hinrich, deng or salmons a wide open shot and those guys would pump fake then try to step in to get a better shot and end up passing up a wide open 3 for a contested 20 footer? they are not the kind of guy's rose needs.  i said when he was drafted that deng and hinrich had to go and
nester66
Star
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1633



« Reply #89 on: June 08, 2008, 05:48:43 pm »

and will still be a better player for the 3 years he has left
Logged

Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8   Go Up
 
 
Jump to: