Home   Help Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 8   Go Down
 
Author Topic: CHI-POR  (Read 16782 times)
phiboy207
Starter
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 929


« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2008, 07:44:45 pm »

Quote from: "Drexler-Roy"
Phiboy it isn't merely 2 backups,remember both Pryz and Blake started this season,and little more than filler. You are asking for a LOTTERY pick and another player who was a first round pick currently playing in Europe.In exchange Portland gets one player who while an upgrade at the point is not even close to being an all star. Sorry but Portland giving up that much would want a potential all star.
1st the current NBAers.  They may have started, but 5 ppg out of the starting C generally means that your looking for ways to push him to the bench.  A PG whose career year is 8/5 wouldn't be my ideal starter either.  They may have started last year, but it was more of a case of "we have nothing better" than "he's my guy".  Otherwise, why is the rumor mill saying that they're looking for a better PG?  Or that Oden is going to have a hard time wresting the starting C position from Pryzilla?  It's simple: they're NBA backups (not that there's any shame in that, I'd trade my job for it in a heartbeat).

As for the prospects, your overrating both of them.  Yes, Freeland was taken with the last pick in the 1st round, but POR hasn't seen fit to bring him over the last 2 years.  I was thinking CHI might want him to replace Viktor Khrapaya if that gives you an indication of what I thought of him.  Decent prospect who could be a versatile contributor, but not a future all-star by any stretch.  As for the #13 pick, I don't understand the emphasis on being a lottery pick.  The lottery is the chance to get a top 3 pick, but the lottery has already happened and it's now the #13 pick.  Could you get a nice prospect, sure.  But there aren't 13 prospects that are consensus potential All-Stars in this year's draft.  13 potential immediate starters is not even a definite.  We're talking about the 3rd or 4th tier of the draft. It's not like POR is giving away a Rose or Beasley - not even a Mayo or a Gordon...hell, I'm guessing not even an Augustin, Westbrook, or a Jordan.  Decent prospect, sure, but not a deal breaker or anything.

To get an All-Star, even an aging one, you have to give up at least one potential All-Star.  Garnett yielded Jefferson, Green, and a top 5 pick (it might be the #3 this year, but it may have been protected); an aging Allen yielded a top 5 pick; an aging Shaq yielded Matrix.  In two of those deal, the players not mentioned had some players better than either of the 2 POR is giving up in this one.  Asking for a potential All-Star should cost even more.  It wouldn't be a bad idea for POR to pay out for a Melo or an Ellis, but I figured this was a getting someone who the other team is more willing to deal and would be a really good fit in POR with his jump shoot and fundamentally sound game without touching an impressive core.
Logged

grizzulie
Benchwarmer
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 304


Here you have the best Bulls fan in Spain


« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2008, 10:58:20 pm »

Why not...

Hinrich($10)+Hughes($12.8 )+Simmons($1.7) = #13($1.8 ) + LaFrentz($12.7) + Przybilla ($6.3)+Blake($4.5 :?: )

Salaries are under the rules. Bulls just give Hinrich to download Hughes and get at least a Lottery pick, the others are just fillers.
Logged
IAm...Me
Journeyman
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 180


« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2008, 05:57:15 am »

This conversation has obviously been hit hard by narcotics. Mis-perception of the Trailblazers is downright shocking. They are THE class of the NBA (perhaps tied with the Spurs I'm not sure their really is no ranking system), they do not *** out whatsoever. Yes they would think about Hinrich (to be a veteran leader, floor general, defender, and all-around top player) and yes they would think about Sefolosha (for his perimeter defense) but they would not 'toss away' Blake or Pryzbilla or a draft pick because their individual statistical production isn't man enough for a starter or something stupid like that, and they sure would not do it based on who is going to play in the All-Star game, I'm not even sure how that was mentioned at all. It should be remembered that if Portland does any trades this off-season they will be done with extreme foresight, meaningfulness, and consideration for all factors and of course will be one-sided in their favor. Also since the Bulls are easily one of the most screwed up teams in the league they will probably do crazy things (especially since they are in the draft spotlight) get rid of very good players (Hinrich, etc...) for either nothing or undesired players. For Portland trading for Hinrich is either a very major decision or not done at all since not only would they probably have to give something beyond Lafrentz but Kirk's contract would heavily eat up their extremely legitimate and cared for cap space starting next summer. Also based on comments from Tuesday Pritchard holds strong value for the #13 pick and has specific players for team needs in mind, thus...it would be terribly difficult for anyone to get that pick away from him.
Logged
phiboy207
Starter
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 929


« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2008, 10:58:40 am »

Quote from: "grizzulie"
Why not...

Hinrich($10)+Hughes($12.8 )+Simmons($1.7) = #13($1.8 ) + LaFrentz($12.7) + Przybilla ($6.3)+Blake($4.5 :?: )

Salaries are under the rules. Bulls just give Hinrich to download Hughes and get at least a Lottery pick, the others are just fillers.
I agree with IAm...Me (I think this is what he's talking about) that POR wouldn't do this.  POR has $17 mil to Francis and $12 mil to LaFrentz set to come off the books this year.  Miles has $9 mil for 2 more years.  Some of this $40 mil may not count against the cap, but I really don't know if POR has used any loopholes or not so that the money wouldn't count.  Anyway, the GM has finally gotten to the point that the light at the end of the tunnel is close and the salary cap/team spending will be under control.  Hence, why bother taking on a Hughes and his $13 mil for 2 years to be a backup to Roy?  I'm not even sure that he'd get more than 10 mins/game with Webster, Jones, and Outlaw being some more wing options.  Even @ the point, Hinrich, Jack, and whoever else (Sergio, Rudy) wouldn't give up minutes easily.  I just couldn't see POR taking on that kind of money for someone who wouldn't play.  Not at this juncture at least.
Quote from: "IAm...Me"
This conversation has obviously been hit hard by narcotics. Mis-perception of the Trailblazers is downright shocking. They are THE class of the NBA (perhaps tied with the Spurs I'm not sure their really is no ranking system), they do not ***** out whatsoever. Yes they would think about Hinrich (to be a veteran leader, floor general, defender, and all-around top player) and yes they would think about Sefolosha (for his perimeter defense) but they would not 'toss away' Blake or Pryzbilla or a draft pick because their individual statistical production isn't man enough for a starter or something stupid like that, and they sure would not do it based on who is going to play in the All-Star game, I'm not even sure how that was mentioned at all. It should be remembered that if Portland does any trades this off-season they will be done with extreme foresight, meaningfulness, and consideration for all factors and of course will be one-sided in their favor. Also since the Bulls are easily one of the most screwed up teams in the league they will probably do crazy things (especially since they are in the draft spotlight) get rid of very good players (Hinrich, etc...) for either nothing or undesired players. For Portland trading for Hinrich is either a very major decision or not done at all since not only would they probably have to give something beyond Lafrentz but Kirk's contract would heavily eat up their extremely legitimate and cared for cap space starting next summer. Also based on comments from Tuesday Pritchard holds strong value for the #13 pick and has specific players for team needs in mind, thus...it would be terribly difficult for anyone to get that pick away from him.
I read through this 2 or 3 x now, and I'm not quite sure what this is referring to.  Let's start with the "class of the NBA" statement.  Yes, the GM is doing a good job and yes, POR is on the right track, but unless and until anyone wins an NBA championship, I'd find it very hard to call them the "class of the NBA".  Putting a very good young team in the same class as a team that's won 3 championships in the last 5 years is a little over the top.  POR is good, but there's a ways to go before putting them in the class of the NBA.  
2nd, the "throw away" Blake and Pryzilla because they aren't "man enough" to be a starter.  All I'm saying is that putting Blake and Pryzilla in a deal for Hinrich shouldn't be considered overpaying for Hinrich since it's a 2 starters (and more) for 1 starter deal.  There is a definite upgrade and if POR decides that they have to get starter value for either one, then they may not get the upgrades they need to get to the next tier of players that they would want to acquire.  Look, if POR went to CHI and said we have a starting NBA C in Pryzilla and we want something similar (or a bit less) than what MIA got for Shaq, then CHI would and should laugh at that.  If POR goes to CHI and says Pryzilla is a very good backup C and we value him as such, then CHI would and should consider that.  "Throw away" - no; Realize their classification to a team that would be acquiring them - yes.
3rd, CHI will do something stupid and will dump Hinrich for trash.  Maybe this will happen, but I don't think so.  Hinrich does have some value and an astute GM will see that he could get a decent deal for him.  I think there will be enough interest that CHI could get a couple of good parts for him.  Could they get anyone that they could add to their core?  Prolly not, but I don't think this deal (in the OP) does that either. Could they expand the bench and get a prospect or two - well, that's what I'm suggesting.  As long as we acknowledge that if this deal was put on the table a year ago, then CHI would have laughed and said "no way".  Then you see why I think POR would consider it this year.  Would that be considered "one-sided"?  In a year, it may very well be...
Logged

nepg
Journeyman
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 138


« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2008, 12:02:42 pm »

Quote from: "grizzulie"
Why not...

Hinrich($10)+Hughes($12.8 )+Simmons($1.7) = #13($1.8 ) + LaFrentz($12.7) + Przybilla ($6.3)+Blake($4.5 :?: )

Salaries are under the rules. Bulls just give Hinrich to download Hughes and get at least a Lottery pick, the others are just fillers.


Don't see why they'd want to dump Hughes at this point...  Only a couple years left on his contract and he's the ideal 6th man with Gordon probably on his way out...

I wouldn't trade Pryz or Fernandez for Hinrich 1 for 1...  Nevermind give up a lotto pick and extras - especially not when I've got two point guards that are about the same level of player Hinrich is already...
Logged
Drexler-Roy
All-Star
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3716



« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2008, 12:45:28 pm »

Phiboy
 1st Miles contract is NOW off Portlands salcap
2nd Pryzbilla while not a great scorer is a very good rebounder and defender who would start on many teams
3rd Blake despite not great numbers helped Portland win MORE games this year than Hinrich did Chicago last year
4th the thirteenth pick has good value all by itself
5th Freeland has been left in Europe to develop and reports say he is getting better
 You want Portland to give up a lot for a player who if not traded may not even start for the Bulls
Logged

Greenwing wrote
Finally, I'm going to state this right now.  The Bulls will have a better record next season that the Portland Trailblazers.
Portland record 54-28
Chicago record 41-41
phiboy207
Starter
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 929


« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2008, 03:51:30 pm »

Quote from: "nepg"
I wouldn't trade Pryz or Fernandez for Hinrich 1 for 1...  Nevermind give up a lotto pick and extras - especially not when I've got two point guards that are about the same level of player Hinrich is already...
Dunno where Fernandez came from - Freeland not Fernandez.  If you think Blake can bring what Hinrich does bring, then I dunno what to say.  Hinrich is a career 15/7 guy without a real hole anywhere in his game.  Blake is career 7/4 guy that 4 teams (including POR once) have figured that there's something better out there.  How you can say that those 2 are even comparable is beyond me.  The PG prospects (Green, Jack, Sergio)?  Maybe, but if they were good enough, then why not play them?  Is Blake really that much better?  If so, then there might be a problem in someone's thinking (and it could be McMillan's for all I know).  Koponen?  How many 6'5" (or taller) PGs from overseas have made a splash in the NBA @ PG?  Kukoc is the only one I can think of, and he was a SF before his 1st game.  Rudy Fernandez?  I've always seen him listed as a SG; moving a 3-PT bomber to PG reeks of desperation to me.  
Now, did Hinrich have an off year last year?  Yes, he certainly did.  Does that mean that you can simply erase the 4 years worth of good play that he built up going into last year when determining his value?  No, it doesn't unless there is an age or long-term injury ?, and I haven't heard of any concerning him.
Quote from: "Drexler-Roy"
Phiboy
1st Miles contract is NOW off Portlands salcap
2nd Pryzbilla while not a great scorer is a very good rebounder and defender who would start on many teams
3rd Blake despite not great numbers helped Portland win MORE games this year than Hinrich did Chicago last year
4th the thirteenth pick has good value all by itself
5th Freeland has been left in Europe to develop and reports say he is getting better
You want Portland to give up a lot for a player who if not traded may not even start for the Bulls
1.) Thanks for the info on Miles.  Is Francis' salary off too?  I think it was a buyout, but I dunno if you used a loophole or not.  Either way though, the owner is still paying mad cash to these guys and it's always better for an employee to show some ROI on $40 million than as a way to get people off the roster.  I'm sure that many in the FO would be more comfortable when ya'll simply aren't paying these guys any money anymore - it'll be soon enough.
2.) Once again, I agree that Przybilla is a decent player, but look, there's a reason that he's now a "well-traveled" veteran.  I understand why you'd balk at including him in the trade, but at this point in his career, he's more journeyman than star.  To get something you have to give something and someone with Przybilla's career shouldn't be a stumbling block to get a core piece which I do think Hinrich could be considering your style of play.
3.) I've seen this argument a lot and it still confounds me.  It's not how many wins did the PG win for the team he's on, it's how many wins would the PG have won for my team if he was here.  Looking @ Blake's career, I can't see him as anything more than a journeyman; Hinrich's career suggests a 2nd tier PG.  How many more games would POR have won with a 2nd tier PG over a journeyman?  That's the ? that has to be answered to determine if the deal is good or not.  Personally, I think that POR would have made the playoffs with Hinrich last year.
4.) Agreed, but once again you have to give something to get something.
5.) Good.  The only real reason I included him as opposed to one of your 1st 2 2nd round picks was because I figured that the 2nds had more trade value on draft day.  I was thinking that you could package all 3 together and get into the late-teens/early-20's (maybe even up to 15 if PHO flakes out again) and make a play for Rush or another SF.  But if you'd prefer Freeland, sub in the #36.
Once again, I don't see POR as giving up "a lot" - I just don't.  I still see the trade as basically 2 journeyman and 2 OK prospects for a 2nd tier PG.  Would you have done the trade @ the deadline if it would have gotten you into the playoffs?  I think it may have, and now you have the replacement for Przybilla already in-house.
Logged

IAm...Me
Journeyman
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 180


« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2008, 11:58:42 pm »

Quote from: "phiboy207"
I read through this 2 or 3 x now, and I'm not quite sure what this is referring to.


So be it...

Also, the Trailblazers are not "close," they are set. Any moves from here on out are "checkmate" moves.
Logged
Drexler-Roy
All-Star
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3716



« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2008, 05:01:47 pm »

Phiboy Hinrichs numbers while good are NOT all star numbers. In fact has he ever been on an all star team?No?
Pryzbilla has been on 3 teams which is hardly well travelled and even if he were well travelled the fact is at this point in his career he would still start for many teams INCLUDING THE BULLS who have no real qualty center
Blake won an NCAA championship and in the NBA the teams he plays for seem to do better than before they accquired him(Denver actually went on a win streak with him as the starting point last season).This is because he is a good chemistry and locker room guy
 For some reason you seem to think because Portland is looking to upgrade at the point that they should/will vastly overpay for a guard who while a quality starter is NOT an all star and is not likely ever to be so
 At the same time you fail to consider other ramification of the trade you propose on the salary cap. Consider this. After NEXT season because of expiring contracts Portland as it stands will be $30 MILLION UNDER THE SALCAP IN A YEAR THAT MAY BE THE BEST FREE AGENT CLASS EVER. The only way Portland will take on salary is if it is likely to dramatically improve the team and Hinrich does NOT fit that bill
Logged

Greenwing wrote
Finally, I'm going to state this right now.  The Bulls will have a better record next season that the Portland Trailblazers.
Portland record 54-28
Chicago record 41-41
radiantcity
Journeyman
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 228


« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2008, 09:32:41 pm »

Kevin Pritchard is a damn strong GM. The points that the Blazers will be heavily under the salary cap next year, and have a powerful young team to lure any high-priced free agent, are not to be overlooked. Pritchard is also focusing, at least for one more year, on the issues of chemistry and character. Greg Oden will play this year under the guidance of a strong coach and an all-star in Brandon Roy. He'll also need a year to work and mesh with LaMarcus Aldridge where they expect to play together for perhaps a decade.

What I'm saying is that I don't see the Blazers making any dramatic moves as they're still developing into a system they all buy into. I could see them making a trade for a potential starting point guard so long as the pg didn't have a long or overpriced contract. A year from now they'll have had another season's worth of maturity and perhaps a playoff experience under their belt. They'll also have a LOT of cash to pay the right player with the promise of being on a championship contender. Heinrich @ 10 mil a year, except perhaps in exchange for Raef LaFrentz and a draft pick or Sergio, just isn't going to happen.
Logged
phiboy207
Starter
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 929


« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2008, 12:43:27 pm »

Quote from: "Drexler-Roy"
Phiboy Hinrichs numbers while good are NOT all star numbers. In fact has he ever been on an all star team?No?
*Sigh*, we treading old ground here.  I stated throughout this thread that Hinrich is a 2nd tier PG - not an All-Star.  I rebutted an argument that said the package POR is giving up should yield an All-Star or a potential All-Star by illustrating that recent history puts the price of an All-Star, even for an aging one, at at least one potential to recent All-Star.  The package POR gives here has no one close to that - if it did then yes, I would set my sights higher than a 2nd tier PG, but, alas, it doesn't.
If you want an Ellis for PG or a 'Melo for SF (or whoever else) than you'd have to pay significantly more - not that it'd be a bad thing to get the player or that you couldn't pay it, but it would be more.  You'd prolly have to cut into your core (Roy-Aldridge-Oden) to land a player of that ilk.  On the other hand, if you want a guy who'd fit into your system and be a good player for you and a decent upgrade over what you currently have without cutting too much from your team, then this is a deal to consider.  This is why I put this deal out there rather than something along the lines of Aldridge for Ellis - I figured it'd be more cost effective.
Quote from: "Drexler-Roy"
Pryzbilla has been on 3 teams which is hardly well travelled and even if he were well travelled the fact is at this point in his career he would still start for many teams INCLUDING THE BULLS who have no real qualty center
To play for 3 teams in your 1st 6 years leaves means your well-traveled, especially if you were a expiring throw-in on any trade.  It takes more than 3-4 years to shake that label.
Przybilla is a journeyman.  He may start for some teams, but every team that would use him as a starter would look for something better.  That's the definition of a journeyman.  MIL decided something better was out there, as did ATL and POR.  There was never really any ? that POR would consider Durant over Oden even though Durant played a position of higher need for POR, because no one ever really thought that Przybilla was anything more than a journeyman.  Yes, journeyman players may be starters for some time and for some teams, but they really don't factor into FO decisions when deciding what needs to be done when attempting to build a core of a championship contender, as your GM (a good GM) has already shown.
Quote from: "Drexler-Roy"
Blake won an NCAA championship and in the NBA the teams he plays for seem to do better than before they accquired him(Denver actually went on a win streak with him as the starting point last season).This is because he is a good chemistry and locker room guy
Look, I'm not saying he isn't a swell guy or hasn't done things that I am envious of - quite the opposite in fact, CHI wouldn't take him otherwise.  But I am saying that he's a journeyman player who could be upgraded and that Hinrich would be an upgrade.  I pointed to the fact that Hinrich's career numbers are almost double what Blake's are with similar to better % in all shooting categories - FGs, FT, and 3-PT - to prove this.  I never heard of Hinrich being a malcontent even though playing with ball hog like Gordon prolly afforded him some opportunity to be so.  Not sure why it matters, but Hinrich had a very impressive college career as well.  Although he never won the NCAA championship, he was a central figure (Mr. Outside to Collison's Mr. Inside) in 2 consecutive Final 4 runs, one ending in the Championship Game.  If you don't think that's as nice as being a periphery figure in a NCAA Championship run, then so be it, but it's still nice.
Quote from: "Drexler-Roy"
For some reason you seem to think because Portland is looking to upgrade at the point that they should/will vastly overpay for a guard who while a quality starter is NOT an all star and is not likely ever to be so
I don't think anyone should overpay for anything.  I just don't see this as overpaying.  2 or 3 x now, I've argued that the package POR is giving up isn't enough to garner an All-Star since there isn't a current or potential All-Star in the package of players your giving up.  Hence, why is a package that is sub-par for an All-Star overpaying for a 2nd tier guy?  I don't understand that.  
Quote from: "Drexler-Roy"
At the same time you fail to consider other ramification of the trade you propose on the salary cap. Consider this. After NEXT season because of expiring contracts Portland as it stands will be $30 MILLION UNDER THE SALCAP IN A YEAR THAT MAY BE THE BEST FREE AGENT CLASS EVER. The only way Portland will take on salary is if it is likely to dramatically improve the team and Hinrich does NOT fit that bill
Huh You do realize that the POR would have more $$$ under the cap with this deal...right?  Assuming all player options are picked up (and team options on the #13 pick), POR would be paying less cap dollars to Hinrich then the package of players and prospects until the '11/'12 season, but since Roy, Aldridge, and Oden should have already picked up extensions by then - why does that matter?  After that, Hinrich contract expires.
The last point you made here is the key I think.  Is Hinrich a dramatic upgrade?  In terms of what?  I've stated that if POR did this deal @ the trading deadline, then you would have be a playoff team IMO.  Would he have stopped the 13-21 swoon that dropped you from 4 games above .500 (which would have left you 3 games out in the W)?  At this point, we can't really know for sure, but I do think putting Hinrich on a team with playoff aspirations would have given both Hinrich and the team the boost to maintain at least a .500 record over the last 34 if not improve it a little and possibly make the playoffs.  Yes, losing Przybilla would have hurt the interior, but that would have been offset by the fact that defenses couldn't focus on Roy, some extra PT for Outlaw and Frye, and a couple of extra wrinkles McMillan could have implemented with Hinrich over Blake.  Would that be considered a dramatic improvement?  I think so.  Now that there's a healthy in-house replacement for Przybilla, the team improvement would be even more dramatic.
I guess we could parallel this with another trade that happened this year.  After watching ATL go from a 4-11 swoon that dropped us outside of playoff contention, we picked up Bibby to replace Anthony Johnson (another journeyman PG who was having a career year...actually with #'s eerily similar to Blake's last year) who helped turn it around and finish strong enough to capture the 8th seed (and finish prolly 4 to 5 games over where we would have if we didn't get him).  Was that turnaround considered "dramatic"?  I think we can agree it was so.  Now, is POR giving up more here than what ATL gave for Bibby?  I think we can agree that it would be, but not by an amount that would demand an All-Star or anything.  Remember that the player your getting is also a player who's at least as good as Bibby on O, can actually play D, is younger, cheaper, and without the injury ? that Bibby has (which as I pointed out earlier is very significant).  There also some other things to consider.  One is that Hinrich could be a combo G and play the 2 alongside Rose in CHI (one of the reasons I'd think he'd be a good fit in POR) whereas Bibby was more or less destined to be a 1 and Udrih was putting a nice hold on that position while Bibby was sitting out most of the year.  Another is that SAC generally got panned for the deal, but Shelden (I don't care how much he gets slammed here, he could a decent NBA PF in the Charles Oakley mold) and the 2nd round pick are actually quite similar in terms of prospects than the #13 and Freeland (or the #36 if you wish to sub that in) - basically a B-level prospect and one that's more for fans to point at what could be in a few years instead of what is right now.  SAC did go for expirings instead of players that they could use as in this package, but I'm not sure CHI would go that route.  Hence, I can't see the continued use of the statement of overpaying when, in reality, it's actually a fairly similar package (albeit with players - not expirings) given up for Bibby, but that deal was panned and your getting a player who has more value.  So how is that overpaying?
Logged

phiboy207
Starter
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 929


« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2008, 01:12:57 pm »

Quote from: "radiantcity"
Kevin Pritchard is a damn strong GM. The points that the Blazers will be heavily under the salary cap next year, and have a powerful young team to lure any high-priced free agent, are not to be overlooked. Pritchard is also focusing, at least for one more year, on the issues of chemistry and character. Greg Oden will play this year under the guidance of a strong coach and an all-star in Brandon Roy. He'll also need a year to work and mesh with LaMarcus Aldridge where they expect to play together for perhaps a decade.

What I'm saying is that I don't see the Blazers making any dramatic moves as they're still developing into a system they all buy into. I could see them making a trade for a potential starting point guard so long as the pg didn't have a long or overpriced contract. A year from now they'll have had another season's worth of maturity and perhaps a playoff experience under their belt. They'll also have a LOT of cash to pay the right player with the promise of being on a championship contender. Heinrich @ 10 mil a year, except perhaps in exchange for Raef LaFrentz and a draft pick or Sergio, just isn't going to happen.
Maybe so, there are definitely other ways to go, but I do think if POR sits on this off-season without doing any significant would be a BIG mistake.  As you point out, POR is on the precipice of something that could be great.  Sitting still won't get you there, you have to go out and earn it.  There are a lot of assets that the GM has to play with, and if he comes out of the off-season and all he's added to the roster is a draft pick while stockpiling a bunch of overseas players (3 2nd rounders) that will do nothing to help the club next year, then I'd be pissed if I was a POR fan.  Even in the future, the value of the overseas players will continue to drop and yield even less help to the team than they could today.  It would be a pity to see a team with some much promise basically wither because the assets they have right now go to waste on players that other NBA execs wouldn't give up anything of value for in 2-3 years.  That's the line POR is riding on right now.  Either stand pat and pray you've got enough to become a championship contender or go out and make sure you do.  Does that mean overpaying for someone or getting an Ellis or a 'Melo?  Not necessarily, but something has to be done.

As for Hinrich, he is a good player with NBA experience and fits the system run in POR.  His contract actually goes down, so they be paying him closer to $9 mil/yr over the life of the contract.  I also see him as a very good compliment to Roy in the front court and I don't understand why people think that his one sub-par year means he should be ostracized.  I don't think CHI is looking to give him away for an expiring as you suggest, I would figure that for Gordon and maybe even Hughes, but not Hinrich.  He's too versatile and has too complete a game to simply give away.  If that means POR would pass, then so be it, but it would prolly be POR's mistake.  Journeyman PGs don't win NBA titles, neither do backup Cs.  Deciding to hang on to such players instead of going out and getting a good player will get you destroyed once you start matching up to the elite teams for 7 straight games.  If you have too big a hole somewhere, then it will be eaten alive.  It would be a real shame if in 2-3 years when the overseas players have more or less lost their value, POR is on the outside looking in when talks of elite NBA teams are bandied about.  That could happen if they simply sat still.
Logged

Drexler-Roy
All-Star
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3716



« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2008, 05:16:35 pm »

Phiboy you fail to see that Hinrich wiil be Chicago's backup point guard next season should they draft Rose,he earns $9-10million per year and most Chicago fans wanted him gone BEFORE they received the #1 pick in other words he is 2nd tier at best.
 Blake is a solid if unspectacular starter who helps his teams win.
Pryzbilla is a quality 7ft center who can rebound and defend.Skills that are always in high demand. Pryz will be a valuable contributor as a bench player and a good solid mentor to Oden. In fact Pryz's skill level is better than just about ANY center in this years draft except maybe Brook Lopez
 You want Portland to not only give up those two players but a high draft pick as well for a player who has some nice stats ,which I believe would drop in Portland, as there is better talent here.
 Portland will look at Hinrich but any deal will be done on fair terms. Portland will have many options to improve at the point as there are several potential good quality points(Calderon,Mo Williams as trade and Portland could trade up for Westbrook,Mayo or Bayless) available.It is not neccesarily a sellers market where a team wanting a point guard must overpay
PS Portland could also just wait one more season and bring over Peter Kopponen
Logged

Greenwing wrote
Finally, I'm going to state this right now.  The Bulls will have a better record next season that the Portland Trailblazers.
Portland record 54-28
Chicago record 41-41
phiboy207
Starter
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 929


« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2008, 09:13:54 pm »

Quote from: "Drexler-Roy"
Phiboy you fail to see that Hinrich wiil be Chicago's backup point guard next season should they draft Rose,he earns $9-10million per year and most Chicago fans wanted him gone BEFORE they received the #1 pick in other words he is 2nd tier at best.
 Blake is a solid if unspectacular starter who helps his teams win.
Pryzbilla is a quality 7ft center who can rebound and defend.Skills that are always in high demand. Pryz will be a valuable contributor as a bench player and a good solid mentor to Oden. In fact Pryz's skill level is better than just about ANY center in this years draft except maybe Brook Lopez
 You want Portland to not only give up those two players but a high draft pick as well for a player who has some nice stats ,which I believe would drop in Portland, as there is better talent here.
 Portland will look at Hinrich but any deal will be done on fair terms. Portland will have many options to improve at the point as there are several potential good quality points(Calderon,Mo Williams as trade and Portland could trade up for Westbrook,Mayo or Bayless) available.It is not neccesarily a sellers market where a team wanting a point guard must overpay
PS Portland could also just wait one more season and bring over Peter Kopponen
I pretty much agree with Hinrich outside of CHI fans wanting to get rid of him.  Most of what I've seen is the acceptance of the fact that CHI was going downhill and something needed to be done.  Hinrich was the player they could get the most for - not to simply dump him.  I mean who else were they going to trade?  The only other player they had that others teams would take as positive value and wouldn't be still considered a prospect was Deng, but he was still under his rookie contract.  It was more of a knowledge that Hinrich was a 2nd tier PG whose value as a player went further than his stats, which over his career are still decent.  In today's NBA, $9-10 million/yr for a 2nd tier PG isn't really overpaying.
2nd, Blake.  Agreed, but I still don't see how this doesn't make him a journeyman which, by definition, is replaceable.
3rd, Przybilla.  He's a vet that has played against NBA caliber talent so yes, his skill level is prolly higher than most rookie Cs.  But going back to the definition of a journeyman, there could be 7 Cs (Both Lopezes, Jordan, Speights, Koufos, McGee, Hibbert) in the draft this year with a higher skill level than Przybilla in 2-3 years and the prospects should still have some upside to further go beyond that.  That doesn't consider Love (I have him @ PF) nor the international guys nor any small school guys since I don't know much about them.  Before I catch too much flak for that, remember that Przybilla averages a little over 1 point and 2 rebounds per quarter, so it's not like the rookie has a long road to hoe.  As long as the rook isn't a bust, then he should be able to contribute in a few years what Przybilla is contributing now.  Hell, some could be busts and still contribute what Przybilla is contributing now.
Look, I don't want POR to overpay in a "buyer's" market for a 2nd tier PG (generally, PG is one of those positions that will never be a buyer's market, if the deal isn't there, then the seller can simply pass).  In fact, I want POR to identify the PGs that fit the system the best and get the most cost effective one.  The player would have to accept being a 4th option, but also be the 2nd best playmaker on the perimeter - after Roy, there isn't too many playmakers on the outside in POR including Blake.  So the new player has to be good, but without the "me-1st" 'tude.  I'd guess that means Mo Williams (D) and TJ Ford (jump shot) wouldn't be considered due to fit in the system ?s.  Calderon, Ellis, and Baron could be had, but I'm guessing that TOR and GSW would take nothing less than a core player (Aldridge, Roy, Oden) and there still ?s with all of them if they'd be willing to accept the background role, so those are prolly a no go.  Hence, your left with the rookies (including Koponnen) or Hinrich.  But can you take that chance on a rookie?  1st, in all honesty, I can't see POR getting to a top 5 pick without giving up significantly more than this package - so, if all the mocks are right (including mine), no Mayo or Bayless.  Next, you have to dump a player to open the roster spot and if he busts (not unlikely for the PG position - especially those, like Westbrook, that didn't even play there in college or those, like Koponnen, who would have to be the 1st player of his ilk to make it in the NBA), then your scrambling.  After going through the cases, Hinrich is a low-risk, cost effective solution that could come in, be ready to contribute immediately, and take the role available while not rocking the boat of team chemistry (as he has done with CHI the last few years with Gordon).  I'm not sure if any other PG on the market really offers that without costing significantly more.
Anyway, I still honestly don't know why you hate the deal so much.  All I've really gotten is Blake and Przybilla are apparently fan favorites (an important consideration in a trade, but not the be-all end-all by any means; Hinrich would be accepted within a month if he does what I think he will within POR's scheme), prospects still mean a lot to POR fans (I don't really know why, prospects are good so fans can say look what we could be in a couple of years, but that's only worth it when you don't have a team that can do something this year and I think POR could compete for home court in the 1st round next year with a decent move or two), and there are other players on the market (true, but from above who is really a better fit and more cost effective - I don't think there's any that have been named so far).  Really, the only things I've seen (more from other posters than you) is that unless you can absolutely steal someone then you don't need to do anything.  But the problem there is that you have one playermaker on the perimeter and between 19 and 21 players that prolly deserve an NBA contract next year when you can only carry 15.  So, why not trade the replaceable players to get players that aren't as so?  That's what confuses me.
Logged

Drexler-Roy
All-Star
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3716



« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2008, 01:00:19 pm »

Phiboy you say one player on the perimeter but Portland will probably be adding the best European player in Rudy Fernandez next year providing a second such player.Rudy and Roy should be able to play at the same time with only minor problems but creating more problems for the opposition.
 Hinrich would be a good player to add AT THE RIGHT PRICE but you ask for essential a 4-1 deal
 You say bringing in Hinrich won't affect chemistry but Blake and Pryzbilla are a big part of that chemistry.
Portland also suffered from rebounding problems this season.Bringing in Oden will solve a lot of that problem but it would regress losing Pryzbilla
 You only look at the benefits Hinrich would add to the team but fail to see what the cost of losing the players you ask for in trade will have to the team
 If Chicago takes Rose ,which is what would make Hinrich available, they then will have other needs. A fair trade for Hinrich from Portland would probably be LaFrentz(expiring) + 13th. Chicago will not get much more than that from anybody as every team will know that Chicago now has a $10million backup point guard who just had a bad season,perhaps his worst in the league.
Logged

Greenwing wrote
Finally, I'm going to state this right now.  The Bulls will have a better record next season that the Portland Trailblazers.
Portland record 54-28
Chicago record 41-41
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 8   Go Up
 
 
Jump to: