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Author Topic: CHI-POR  (Read 17141 times)
phiboy207
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« Reply #105 on: June 09, 2008, 04:49:43 am »

Few things:
-Kwame Brown may be a bust as the #1 overall, but that doesn't mean he can't be a journeyman backup.  Talk to the MIL FO that traded up to draft Przybilla and I'm sure the word bust will come out.  Getting journeyman backup types in the top 10 generally yields that term.  But the fact that they were drafted high has no bearing on what they are which is a journeyman/backup.
-Billups would be a better pickup than Hinrich, but do you honestly believe that DET would part with Billups for two journeymen, a middling prospect, and the #13?  No, not too many players who'd get significant minutes would pop free for that package - not Billups, not Bowen.  The deal here for Hinrich is cheap.  If POR would prefer to pay for a better PG, then there are candidates available, but it doesn't appear the POR is willing to pay right now (for this I cite Calderon).  So, I went with a cost conscious approach here.
-As far as the difference between Hinrich and Blake, I would default to NBA talent evaluators (GMs, coaches, etc.) including POR's over fans of either team.  Looking @ their actions and quotes (anonymous or otherwise), it's clear that they see Hinrich as a legit NBA starter to borderline elite player (aka, 2nd tier PG), while Blake is someone to fill out a roster to stopgap replacement (aka, journeyman).  The difference in their eyes is more important to me than CHI fans or POR fans, and the difference is huge.  I still can't fathom why a couple of replaceable parts and the #13 isn't worth the difference.  It appears that POR is more interested in either a) throwing out fan reactions than looking @ it with a GM eye or b) looking to steal someone (it happens, but I don't think it would here).
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nester66
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« Reply #106 on: June 09, 2008, 07:24:31 am »

Oh I wasn't saying they would give him away for this exact package IF I was trading for him, I'd give more. #13, next years picks, any of our unsigned overseas prospects, any of our seconds, TO, Jack and martell if I had too. But thats only IF portland was looking for a big splash this year. On the blazers website Mike Barret asked the real question:

"The emphasis is, obviously, on education and growth, and a hope for the future. My question is how far into the future are we talking? What things do you look at when making your personal goals and predictions? Do factors like this jump out at you when you weigh in on whether or not the Trail Blazers should look to get younger, or make an attempt to grab a veteran or two? If your vote is to ride the youth (and I'm inclined to lean that way), are you realistic about what that likely means?


All of this being said, I can't think of many rosters in this league I'd trade Portland's for. The ride up the hill, and seeing the window start to crack open, is a lot more fun than seeing it slam shut short of expectations (see Phoenix and Dallas). I guess it's all about expectations, and we're all responsible for creating those.


As always, it's just a thought. I'd love to get yours"

So, with that being said, there is a reason portland isn't trying to trade for these expensive people and it can't be stated enough because everyone else seems to be wanting to tell us fans and, judging by your statement, the orginization is stupid not to trade for hinrich: Portland doesn't want to spend a lot of money right now. We will have around 30 million to spend in the next offseason. The free agents include BD, AI, Elton brand, Kobe, Artest, Odom, Kidd, and so on. Theres also all the rookie contracts open and restricted. We would have the ability to outbid almost anyone on any player. We also are letting our young PG's keep playing and learning. Putting a later 20's pg in the mix who would take 33-35 minutes a night would hold back Sergio's progress as well as jacks, assuming we keep him.

Anyway, not to go on a rant.

And Przybilla is a fan favorate here. He's a hustle guy and his numbers don't always show how good he is. He will be a perfect mentor for oden this year and insurance on Oden's knee. He will also be great trade bait come next offseason, assuming Oden is fine.

Everytime I ever watched Kwame he couldn't play D, O, or hold onto the ball. MJ broke that dude.
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phiboy207
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« Reply #107 on: June 09, 2008, 11:50:05 am »

Quote from: "nester66"
Oh I wasn't saying they would give him away for this exact package IF I was trading for him, I'd give more. #13, next years picks, any of our unsigned overseas prospects, any of our seconds, TO, Jack and martell if I had too. But thats only IF portland was looking for a big splash this year.
Fair enough.  I've always agreed that there were other options - just that Hinrich is pretty good and could be had for cheaper.  Another that I threw out was Monta Ellis who is an RFA.  Anyway, I wouldn't trade Outlaw though.  He was coming on and I think he still has some upside left in him.
Quote from: "nester66"
So, with that being said, there is a reason portland isn't trying to trade for these expensive people and it can't be stated enough because everyone else seems to be wanting to tell us fans and, judging by your statement, the orginization is stupid not to trade for hinrich: Portland doesn't want to spend a lot of money right now. We will have around 30 million to spend in the next offseason. The free agents include BD, AI, Elton brand, Kobe, Artest, Odom, Kidd, and so on. Theres also all the rookie contracts open and restricted. We would have the ability to outbid almost anyone on any player. We also are letting our young PG's keep playing and learning. Putting a later 20's pg in the mix who would take 33-35 minutes a night would hold back Sergio's progress as well as jacks, assuming we keep him.

Anyway, not to go on a rant.
2 things here:
- PG Prospects.  Here's the thing that gets me that wasn't answered earlier: everyone supposedly likes them, but then why not play them?  Even @ the end of the year, when POR was basically out of the playoffs, Blake was averaging 30+ minutes/night while Sergio was benched for most of the last month.  It's to the point that Sergio is asking out.  Jack was playing more, but I do wonder if 34 % from 3 and 4 assists per is really what McMillan wants out of a PG.  Am I missing something here?  Was there an issue that was since resolved?  Is Jack being asked to do things that others aren't?
- Cap Room: Whenever I see someone say that their team has just an incredible amount of cap room, I'm generally skeptical.  Assuming a $60 mil cap, I've calculated POR's cap room @ about $11 mil for next off-season (the numbers are on page 4 of this thread, about 4 post from the bottom, shoot holes if you feel like it).  A max contract this year was over a little over $13 mil and would be $15 mil with a $60 mil cap.  The original deal actually yields cap room next off-season - not quite enough to give max contract numbers with these assumptions, but it's close.

Quote from: "nester66"
And Przybilla is a fan favorate here. He's a hustle guy and his numbers don't always show how good he is. He will be a perfect mentor for oden this year and insurance on Oden's knee. He will also be great trade bait come next offseason, assuming Oden is fine.

Everytime I ever watched Kwame he couldn't play D, O, or hold onto the ball. MJ broke that dude.
I understand Przybilla being a fan favorite (thrust me, after this thread, I understand), but that shouldn't stop a trade for Hinrich - who brings many of the same qualities that you attribute to Przybilla's being a fan favorite.  As for the mentoring thing, it is important, but what has been going on for the last year?  I realize that Oden was hurt, but for the $5+ mil he was making, attending practice and meetings doesn't seem too much to ask.  I just still can't see why Przybilla would be the huge hangup here.  If there was a player whose salary would match and was preferable for POR to trade (aka, not an expiring for cap room next off-season) then he could be subbed out without too much issue, but I can't really see one.
I wouldn't be too quick to say that Przybilla could be traded easily either - $14 mil over 2 years isn't incredible for a backup C, but it can be prohibitive, especially  for a team eying the luxury tax.  I'm sure that NJN thought the same with another backup C - Jason Collins who was due $12 mil over his final 2 years (Good Defender; Championship Experience; Played better than his stats; etc.).  Eventually they paid MEM to swap him for a player with a similar contract in Swift.
As for Brown, no, he isn't a starter, but for 10 minutes/game he has things to offer.  A wide bodied rebounder with enough athleticism to do some things.  It isn't an attempt to find a diamond in the rough, it's an attempt to approximate the production of another backup C, and at the least, he's good for that.
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JoseJ
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« Reply #108 on: June 09, 2008, 11:59:36 am »

Theres nothing elite about Hinrich.  I don't see him better than someone like Derek Fisher or Rajon Rando.
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Jason Rubin
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« Reply #109 on: June 09, 2008, 12:20:35 pm »

Quote from: "Drexler-Roy"
Greenwing you call me a stat twister and then cite stats while also telling me to ignore stats you find inconvenient.Perfectly logical


See, I'm not twisting stats, though.  I'm using them in context of the situation.  When you use stats in arguments, you have to be prepared to defend the stats you used with either logical arguments or more stats.  I've found holes in your arguments.  Hence, you're twisting stats to fit your argument while leaving those arguments open for attacks.  If you want to continue using stats in arguments, use them more wisely.
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Jason Rubin
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« Reply #110 on: June 09, 2008, 12:21:25 pm »

Quote from: "JoseJ"
Theres nothing elite about Hinrich.  I don't see him better than someone like Derek Fisher or Rajon Rando.


Perhaps not elite, but Hinrich is one of the better point guards in the league.  And he's certainly miles ahead of Fisher and Rondo.  It's not even close.
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Drexler-Roy
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« Reply #111 on: June 09, 2008, 12:32:48 pm »

As Jose said there is nothing elite about Hinrich.Not even close.On Portland roster IF(a big if btw) he tied his career highs he is no better than 4th best on the team and could easily drop to the 5th or 6th best,elite players are not 5th or 6th best players on their team(except on the original dream team),We keep hearing that he had a 17ppg6apg season.But how good a season is that really?It's not all star.Not even really close. Also will whatever caused his game to regress be fixed?If so how?A career 41%fg shooting also does not inspire confidence.
 Phiboy do not be suprised to see Kwame Brown out of the league after his contract is up.He is that bad.
 San Antonio before last season began reportedly offered their first for Pryzbilla.This was after a season in which Pryz had been hurt much of the season.I'm certain that after the season Pryz just had his value is up
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Greenwing wrote
Finally, I'm going to state this right now.  The Bulls will have a better record next season that the Portland Trailblazers.
Portland record 54-28
Chicago record 41-41
JoseJ
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« Reply #112 on: June 09, 2008, 12:45:45 pm »

Quote from: "greenwing"
Quote from: "JoseJ"
Theres nothing elite about Hinrich.  I don't see him better than someone like Derek Fisher or Rajon Rando.


Perhaps not elite, but Hinrich is one of the better point guards in the league.  And he's certainly miles ahead of Fisher and Rondo.  It's not even close.


Elite is usually top 10.  Hinrich isn't a top 10 PG.

1. Chris Paul
2. Deron Williams
3. Steve Nash
4. Jason Kidd
5. Allen Iverson
6. Baron Davis
7. Chauncey Billups
8. Jose Calderon
9. Tony Parker
10. Gilbert Arenas
11. TJ Ford
12. Devin Harris
13. Andre Miller
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Drexler-Roy
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« Reply #113 on: June 09, 2008, 01:24:09 pm »

Greenwing the context of the situation is how good a player Hinrich is.Tossing out a whole seasons stats because they weaken your argument is stat twisting to an extreme level.In fact you ignore EVERY season of Hinrichs career EXCEPT his career year.Your only excuse for his bad year last year is that the whole team was down.Actually that makes me even more wary of him as it shows a lack of leadership on his part(leadership being a very important quality in a pg)
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Greenwing wrote
Finally, I'm going to state this right now.  The Bulls will have a better record next season that the Portland Trailblazers.
Portland record 54-28
Chicago record 41-41
phiboy207
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« Reply #114 on: June 09, 2008, 03:31:32 pm »

Quote from: "JoseJ"
Theres nothing elite about Hinrich.  I don't see him better than someone like Derek Fisher or Rajon Rando.
I guess this is the reason he's underrated, he doesn't make SportsCenter since he doesn't have 1 elite skill.  But is there not some love for a player who is good to very good in a lot of different aspects of the game?  A solid all-around game means something - even if it doesn't show up in a 20 second highlight reel.
As for the comps, no, Fisher is more a "game manger" type with a fair to good jump shot.  The rest of his game is actually average to below.  Rondo is incredible in stretches (there were a couple of points in the series against my Hawks where he basically dominated), but he's very inconsistent (there were also some entire games in that series where you didn't even know he was on the court).  Rondo is still young and if shows some consistency then he would definitely elevate, but right now, I can't see it.
Quote from: "JoseJ"
Elite is usually top 10.  Hinrich isn't a top 10 PG.

1. Chris Paul
2. Deron Williams
3. Steve Nash
4. Jason Kidd
5. Allen Iverson
6. Baron Davis
7. Chauncey Billups
8. Jose Calderon
9. Tony Parker
10. Gilbert Arenas
11. TJ Ford
12. Devin Harris
13. Andre Miller
From this list, I would a) simply throw out AI (if he was really a top 5 PG in the league then why does everyone move him to SG?) and b) insert Hinrich ahead of TJ Ford.  Ford has some impressive drives and he's a good finisher, but his passing ability isn't what you'd expect from someone whose basically a penetrator, his jump shot isn't even average, and his defense is weak overall (he's at least decent in the open court - perhaps a little above, but post him up and about all he can do is foul).  That leaves Hinrich @ 10.  While this post would call that "elite", I'll back off that and still say he's 2nd tier.
Quote from: ""
San Antonio before last season began reportedly offered their first for Pryzbilla.This was after a season in which Pryz had been hurt much of the season.I'm certain that after the season Pryz just had his value is up
Don't believe trade rumors that don't work under the cap.  Who were they offering to match salaries?  That's the kind of thing that unless you know the whole truth, it doesn't make sense to speculate.  From that statement alone, this is the scenario that pops in my head: SAS wasn't enamored with anyone @ the bottom of the 1st.  They decided to trade it and to dump a contract and wouldn't mind taking a backup C @ the MLE back.  Hence, they save money from 2 guaranteed contracts (the one to match salaries and the 1 to the 1st round pick they weren't going to develop) and get a backup C in the process.  Not sure if that makes Przybilla worth a 1st rounder, just a player who fit the scenario that SAS was trying to pull off.
Too many factors in trade rumors get misreported unless you have the full picture.  From this statement, the full picture isn't nearly there.
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MR23Miyagi
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« Reply #115 on: June 17, 2008, 10:12:19 am »

Hinrich is a scrub and always will be, watching him play makes me want to rip  my eyes out, he can not manage a game, cant handle, cant finish,cant play defense(nearly ripped d.wades arm off in 06-07) and just sits at the three line. To even think that he is worthy to be in the top twenty pg n the league is stretching it. That is why there are not a lot of trades involving kirk, and that is why derrick rose is being considered as the top pick in the draft. if hinrich had any talent or potential, rose would not even be considered. Beasly would make more sense because he is the big man that the bulls do not have but because kirk is a scrub they will pass on him and get a true point who can play basketball.
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nester66
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« Reply #116 on: June 17, 2008, 12:09:49 pm »

If hinrich was so good then bulls fans wouldn't be giving a thousand reasons for the blazers to trade for him and be begging the bulls to pick rose. If he was so good then Blazer fans wouldn't be throwing every single arguement up that was possible for not wanting him.

Face it, Blazer fans don't want Hinrich or his crap contract.

Just by debating with us about it shows that you don't want him either.

Its a mute point by now
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Jason Rubin
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« Reply #117 on: June 17, 2008, 01:21:25 pm »

Quote from: "nester66"
If hinrich was so good then bulls fans wouldn't be giving a thousand reasons for the blazers to trade for him and be begging the bulls to pick rose. If he was so good then Blazer fans wouldn't be throwing every single arguement up that was possible for not wanting him.

Face it, Blazer fans don't want Hinrich or his crap contract.

Just by debating with us about it shows that you don't want him either.

Its a mute point by now


Who's begging for the Trailblazers to take him?  If you read these threads you'd see that it's a very mixed belief that Portland is a good trading partner.  And I'm in the category of not wanting to trade with Portland at all.
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