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Author Topic: Raptors fire Sam Mitchell!  (Read 23434 times)
Supa
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« Reply #135 on: December 04, 2008, 10:30:07 pm »
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If you believe that, then how can you say that it was a good job by BC? (which you did).  You weren't there! You don't know! You cant say it is the truth!  I guess you will have to admit you were wrong.

As strange as it may sound, the "truth" is not very valuable in debating or conversing.  It is a philosophical maxim that nothing can really ever be proven or known (although thats a bit of a paradox in and of itself).  However, if we guide our lives by that principle, it is counter productive.

In arguments, you can speculate, you can present your opinions and evidence.  Simply shouting "you don't know for sure!!!" is not a productive way to debate.  It is in fact, useless.  I have presented my theory of what happened, presented evidence as to why I think it happened this way.  You have offered no counter-evidence, and have fallen back on a "nothing" argument.
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Supa
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« Reply #136 on: December 04, 2008, 10:31:42 pm »
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Quote from: "Prime Time"
Quote from: "Supa"
Quote from: "Prime Time"
Quote from: "Supa"
Prime, you do not understand how the cap works.  Read about Bird rights then get back to me.  You are not proving yourself right by posting that, you are showing everyone that you don't understand the cap.


bird right?? Yes I know what are bird rights... Does Toronto want to go over the luxury tax? No... like i said.. they'd have close to 40million insured in 4 players. They'll need a 13 or 14 player roster. They'll need to sign 8 or 9 other role players before they sign bosh with his "bird rights." Cam we sign 8 or 9 good role players for 17 million before signing Bosh? RJ might not even be good in 2010.. We don't know. BC doesn't want to take the risk.. That's why he didn't trade TJ Ford for G Force.


If we have 4 players who take up 40 million of the cap space, then we would have about 30 million to work with without going over into the luxury tax threshold, not 17 million.


one last thing before i go to sleep. we have 17 mil to sign free agents who don't have bird rights with us...


Incorrect.  

We have 17 million (possibly more if the economy doesn't totally tank) + 5.5 million (MLE) + however many minimum or veterans minimum contracts we would like.
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Chuck Diesel
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« Reply #137 on: December 05, 2008, 12:27:03 am »
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lol between me supa and Zad you might as well just bang your head into a wall for a while.
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Zad
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« Reply #138 on: December 05, 2008, 03:13:58 am »
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Quote from: Supa
Quote from: Prime Time
Quote from: "Supa"

Good:

1) TJ for CV
2) TJ + Rasho + Pick for O'Neal (Jury is still out on this one, it really depends on O'Neal's health and whatever other opportunities were out there for TJ + pick for a good wing player).
3) Signing Calderon to a very reasonable contract.
4) Parker (had a great couple years.  Gettin real slow.)
5) Garbo (the injury was tragic, great bench guy)
6) Moon (not great, but super cheap)



#2 is bad IMO

But you can add signing Mitchell and Graham to the list
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cselby
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« Reply #139 on: December 05, 2008, 10:26:30 am »
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How, pray tell, is trading a PG we don't need and a centre for a better centre bad?
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Supa
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« Reply #140 on: December 05, 2008, 10:36:32 am »
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Because he thinks TJ is an All-star, or better.
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Zad
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« Reply #141 on: December 05, 2008, 04:23:41 pm »
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Quote from: "Supa"
Because he thinks TJ is an All-star, or better.


No, because trading for an old expensive center to give up a young starter which have been proven to help the team. You gain an above average center but lose an average center AND a VERY GOOD back up point guard(if you think he's just a backup).

Like I said proof will be the end of this season.

I like Ford better than Calderon but thats just me
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xduckshoex
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« Reply #142 on: December 05, 2008, 05:08:10 pm »
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I don't really like the O'Neal trade either, only because O'Neal isn't what he used to be.  The Raptors could have gotten similar production out of Nesterovic and used Ford to get something that they needed even more.

Here are the numbers put up by Nesterovic and O'Neal so far this year:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=onealje01&y1=2009&p2=nestera01&y2=2009

O'Neal is clearly the better rebounder, Nesterovic is clearly having a better offensive year and O'Neal has definitely failed to improve the Raptors defense.
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Supa
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« Reply #143 on: December 05, 2008, 06:11:17 pm »
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Quote from: "Zad"
Quote from: "Supa"
Because he thinks TJ is an All-star, or better.


No, because trading for an old expensive center to give up a young starter which have been proven to help the team. You gain an above average center but lose an average center AND a VERY GOOD back up point guard(if you think he's just a backup).

Like I said proof will be the end of this season.

I like Ford better than Calderon but thats just me


Fair enough.  I didn't love the trade either, but generally you gotta give something to get something.  

However, regardless of fault (don't really want to re-hash our crap) Calderon and TJ weren't coexisting well.
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Chuck Diesel
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« Reply #144 on: December 05, 2008, 06:16:20 pm »
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I had no idea Rasho's 9.6 ppg and 5.6 rpg and 3.1 apg is "similar" to J.O's 12.4, 8.3 and 1.5 Blocks. Or even worse  were Rasho's Toronto numbers of 7.8 and 4.8.  So JO is esentially doubling on what Rasho did last year plus playing WAY better Defense.

We had 2 good PG's (only 1 can play at any time) so we traded one to get a center that's a big improvement over Rasho.

Regardless coaches make a HUGE difference. You can play it down all you want, let me give you some examples.

Ben Wallace
roger Mason JR in san antonio
Even Rasho and TJ have better numbers without Smitch around. TJ is freakin getting almost 5 boards a game. What was the raptors problem? oh yeah rebounding.
Golden State as a team last year.
Kapono under Riley, Kapono under Smitch


O'Neal failed to improve our d ? no.
Rasho is better offensively? no.

Where are you drawing these statements from? some fantasy in your head? Can you read or what?
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xduckshoex
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« Reply #145 on: December 05, 2008, 07:04:36 pm »
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Yes, I can read.  Using my reading skills, I can see that they score at roughly the same rate, but Rasho scores more efficiently.  I can see that O'Neal has more turnovers than assists, while Rasho has roughly three assists for every turnover.  More efficient scoring?  Better passing?  Not turning the ball over as much?  I don't know, that sure sounds better to me.  O'Neal is having the worst season he's had since he was in Portland.

And I am curious how O'Neal has improved the Raptors defense when they were 13th in the League last year and they are 25th now.  Maybe you have a different definition of the word "improve" than I do.
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cselby
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« Reply #146 on: December 05, 2008, 07:15:11 pm »
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I think the misconception here is that, O'Neal hasn't improved the Raptors team defense because as a whole, it sucks horribly, but indivdually he's our best defensive player and it's not even close imo.
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Zad
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« Reply #147 on: December 05, 2008, 08:59:28 pm »
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Quote from: "Supa"
Quote from: "Zad"
Quote from: "Supa"
Because he thinks TJ is an All-star, or better.


No, because trading for an old expensive center to give up a young starter which have been proven to help the team. You gain an above average center but lose an average center AND a VERY GOOD back up point guard(if you think he's just a backup).

Like I said proof will be the end of this season.

I like Ford better than Calderon but thats just me


Fair enough.  I didn't love the trade either, but generally you gotta give something to get something.  

However, regardless of fault (don't really want to re-hash our crap) Calderon and TJ weren't coexisting well.


yeh I dont want to go back to the Ford vs. Calderon thing either becuase he's gone

My point before was they could have moved different players(or coach!).
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ballers101
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« Reply #148 on: December 05, 2008, 08:59:52 pm »
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People forget delfino was a good defender, as was TJ, they were our best backcourt defenders(jamario WAS but now he doesn't do much)  so there losses is what leaves us with a terrible backcourt defense, JO has shut down some very good inside players(namely howard) but when he's off everyone runs circles around us
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xduckshoex
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« Reply #149 on: December 05, 2008, 10:16:53 pm »
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Quote from: "cselby"
I think the misconception here is that, O'Neal hasn't improved the Raptors team defense because as a whole, it sucks horribly, but indivdually he's our best defensive player and it's not even close imo.


...but if he doesn't improve the defense isn't the trade a failure?

You don't bring in a big man who shoots 44% from the floor to boost your offense.  Maybe I'm looking at things in terms that are too black and white, but if you make a move for a specific purpose and it fails in that purpose then the move is a failure.  

Of course, I've never been high on O'Neal to begin with.  He shoots a really low percentage, if he would just focus on defense and leave the bulk of the offense to the rest of the team I think everyone would be better off.  He can be a great defensive player but for the most part he's a mediocre offensive player.
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"Often all it takes is a literary allusion to the idea that truth only exists in the plural to make the defenders of one truth or another sense danger, mortal danger."
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