Lets Try This Again, Shaq or Olajuwon in their Prime?

[roytarpley]

Lebron won't teach any of his skills either...

[BRockin25]

i mean Hakeem was such an intelligent player, he could do so much, he was so effective in so many ways. He made players so much better. like the post above me, i cant wait to see Shaq train players anywhere from Center to Point Guard. Shaq was dominant, wowwwww, theres a reason Orlando got swept by Rockets. Shaq doesnt have the fundamentals to outsmart players, he only knows two things: post, dunk, post, jump hook

Fundamentals to outsmart players? You don't know basketball point blank period. Shaq is a smart player with a lot of tools. Very few big men in history can pass and handle the ball like Shaq, and his court awareness, knowledge of angles on post seals, and timing on said seals have kept him productive as his athleticism has gone south.

Shaq has all the same footwork as Olajuwon, but with his size, it would be a bad strategy to try to get around players with his moves. The only things Shaq lacks in comparison to Olajuwon is finishing with the left hand and jumpshooting, which are generally significant fundamentals to have. Shaq has still been very productive without them though

Most people cant understand this because they have never actually played the post and they overrate "post footwork", "fundamentals", etc. Shaq has more to his game than he gets credit for.

[zunami23]

Mutombo was a better defender because he could expend all his energy on the defensive end. Big Ben has never even been a great post defender.

You say there was no one to contest Shaq for rebounds when the Lakers were the 5th best team in rebounding and as you said (and I'm not making this up), the best if they played in the East. Do you understand that the players who are 1st and 2nd don't determine the rebounding ability of the whole team? You fail to mention that the Rockets were 19th in rebounding and 6th worst in rebounds allowed when they won the '94-95 championship. How's that for rebounding help? Or does it not matter because their 2nd leading rebounder somehow negates that? Olajuwon averaged 10.8 RPG that season btw. When you choose a line of reasoning, you're supposed to apply it across the board, instead of applying it only when it's convenient for your argument.

Id be more impressed if he did it against Spurs, Kings or Blazers back then.

Oh ok, why didn't you say so?

Playoff games against the Kings:
44, 21 and 7 blocks (hey, what do you know, that's actually better than the Sixers game, and it didn't even take an overtime)
43 and 20 (ditto, no overtime)
46 and 17
41 and 17
32 and 18

i like how against philly u were all excited about his near quadruple double, and then when i told u id be more impressed if he did it against those other teams i mentioned, u started bragging about double doubles and one near triple double he had... wheres those near quadruple doubles???

hahahah you're faulting Shaq for not getting near quadruple doubles? Yeah man, he was really struggling... you can really tell we're talking about the most dominant player of all time when you have to bring up how he wasn't getting near quadruple doubles.

I'm referring to the 44 and 20 game that I showed a youtube clip of when I say they were better

when was i faulting exactly? honestly, when did i say im faulting shaq?....u showed shaqs near quadruple double against sixers, i said id be impressed if he did it against one of those top teams in the west, and u started showing me his near triple double and double double stats, but i want to see a near quadruple double against one of those top west teams, that simple

Not impressed, huh? He needs to put up quadruple doubles to be at Hakeem's level?

lol the only thing im impressed is with ur mom getting my double doubles in her mouth

wtf was that? So you give up basically?

i gave up? ill say it one more time: u showed shaqs near quadruple double against philly, i said show me him doing that against top teams in the west, u showed me his double doubles and near triple double, i said so wheres that near quadruple double, ur claiming im not impressed with those double doubles and near triple double


u went off subject, show me that near quadruple double man, lets see it

Actually I showed the 44 and 20 game. It was pretty clear I was referring to the 44 and 20 game and it's pretty clear you've ran out of arguments. I mean seriously is this all you have left:
Shaq didn't have a near quadruple double against a better defensive frontcourt than Mutombo and Tyrone Hill. Therefore he isn't as good as Hakeem?
If that's not your argument, none of what you're saying has a point.

You might not even want to respond. Notice how the guy who brings up "ur mom" is never the guy who's winning the argument.

[yop32]

It's not a quadruple double, but on November 14, 1997, at age 25, Shaq posted 24 pts, 13 rebs, and 8 ast.  Almost a triple double.  Not so impressive you say?  Well, at the other end of the floor, he limited his counterpart to 4 pts and 8 rebs.  The opponent:  Hakeem Olajuwon, age 34.

[ballfreak™]

 This is a tough one but I have to give it to Hakeem "The Dream" Olajuwon.

[yop32]

One way that Shaq helped his team that is not well represented in his line in the box score is the fouls he drew.  By getting the opponent into foul trouble, he made life much easier for his team on both ends of the floor, as the opponent's aggressiveness bled away.  In his best season, Shaq averaged over 13 free throw attempts per game, enough to foul out two of the opponents' players and then some.

[LexDaMan]

i mean Hakeem was such an intelligent player, he could do so much, he was so effective in so many ways. He made players so much better. like the post above me, i cant wait to see Shaq train players anywhere from Center to Point Guard. Shaq was dominant, wowwwww, theres a reason Orlando got swept by Rockets. Shaq doesnt have the fundamentals to outsmart players, he only knows two things: post, dunk, post, jump hook

Fundamentals to outsmart players? You don't know basketball point blank period. Shaq is a smart player with a lot of tools. Very few big men in history can pass and handle the ball like Shaq, and his court awareness, knowledge of angles on post seals, and timing on said seals have kept him productive as his athleticism has gone south.

Shaq has all the same footwork as Olajuwon, but with his size, it would be a bad strategy to try to get around players with his moves. The only things Shaq lacks in comparison to Olajuwon is finishing with the left hand and jumpshooting, which are generally significant fundamentals to have. Shaq has still been very productive without them though

Most people cant understand this because they have never actually played the post and they overrate "post footwork", "fundamentals", etc. Shaq has more to his game than he gets credit for.

"Shaq has all the same footwork as Olajuwon," LOL! and burgers always come with fries.... comparing footwork of a soccer player to someone who didnt play sports consistently until he started playin ball in his teen years

[LexDaMan]

Mutombo was a better defender because he could expend all his energy on the defensive end. Big Ben has never even been a great post defender.

You say there was no one to contest Shaq for rebounds when the Lakers were the 5th best team in rebounding and as you said (and I'm not making this up), the best if they played in the East. Do you understand that the players who are 1st and 2nd don't determine the rebounding ability of the whole team? You fail to mention that the Rockets were 19th in rebounding and 6th worst in rebounds allowed when they won the '94-95 championship. How's that for rebounding help? Or does it not matter because their 2nd leading rebounder somehow negates that? Olajuwon averaged 10.8 RPG that season btw. When you choose a line of reasoning, you're supposed to apply it across the board, instead of applying it only when it's convenient for your argument.

Id be more impressed if he did it against Spurs, Kings or Blazers back then.

Oh ok, why didn't you say so?

Playoff games against the Kings:
44, 21 and 7 blocks (hey, what do you know, that's actually better than the Sixers game, and it didn't even take an overtime)
43 and 20 (ditto, no overtime)
46 and 17
41 and 17
32 and 18

i like how against philly u were all excited about his near quadruple double, and then when i told u id be more impressed if he did it against those other teams i mentioned, u started bragging about double doubles and one near triple double he had... wheres those near quadruple doubles???

hahahah you're faulting Shaq for not getting near quadruple doubles? Yeah man, he was really struggling... you can really tell we're talking about the most dominant player of all time when you have to bring up how he wasn't getting near quadruple doubles.

I'm referring to the 44 and 20 game that I showed a youtube clip of when I say they were better

when was i faulting exactly? honestly, when did i say im faulting shaq?....u showed shaqs near quadruple double against sixers, i said id be impressed if he did it against one of those top teams in the west, and u started showing me his near triple double and double double stats, but i want to see a near quadruple double against one of those top west teams, that simple

Not impressed, huh? He needs to put up quadruple doubles to be at Hakeem's level?

lol the only thing im impressed is with ur mom getting my double doubles in her mouth

wtf was that? So you give up basically?

i gave up? ill say it one more time: u showed shaqs near quadruple double against philly, i said show me him doing that against top teams in the west, u showed me his double doubles and near triple double, i said so wheres that near quadruple double, ur claiming im not impressed with those double doubles and near triple double


u went off subject, show me that near quadruple double man, lets see it

Actually I showed the 44 and 20 game. It was pretty clear I was referring to the 44 and 20 game and it's pretty clear you've ran out of arguments. I mean seriously is this all you have left:
Shaq didn't have a near quadruple double against a better defensive frontcourt than Mutombo and Tyrone Hill. Therefore he isn't as good as Hakeem?
If that's not your argument, none of what you're saying has a point.

You might not even want to respond. Notice how the guy who brings up "ur mom" is never the guy who's winning the argument.

my point is u bragged about Shaq getting a near quadruple double against Sixers, a team they almost swept

[zunami23]

Mutombo was a better defender because he could expend all his energy on the defensive end. Big Ben has never even been a great post defender.

You say there was no one to contest Shaq for rebounds when the Lakers were the 5th best team in rebounding and as you said (and I'm not making this up), the best if they played in the East. Do you understand that the players who are 1st and 2nd don't determine the rebounding ability of the whole team? You fail to mention that the Rockets were 19th in rebounding and 6th worst in rebounds allowed when they won the '94-95 championship. How's that for rebounding help? Or does it not matter because their 2nd leading rebounder somehow negates that? Olajuwon averaged 10.8 RPG that season btw. When you choose a line of reasoning, you're supposed to apply it across the board, instead of applying it only when it's convenient for your argument.

Id be more impressed if he did it against Spurs, Kings or Blazers back then.

Oh ok, why didn't you say so?

Playoff games against the Kings:
44, 21 and 7 blocks (hey, what do you know, that's actually better than the Sixers game, and it didn't even take an overtime)
43 and 20 (ditto, no overtime)
46 and 17
41 and 17
32 and 18

i like how against philly u were all excited about his near quadruple double, and then when i told u id be more impressed if he did it against those other teams i mentioned, u started bragging about double doubles and one near triple double he had... wheres those near quadruple doubles???

hahahah you're faulting Shaq for not getting near quadruple doubles? Yeah man, he was really struggling... you can really tell we're talking about the most dominant player of all time when you have to bring up how he wasn't getting near quadruple doubles.

I'm referring to the 44 and 20 game that I showed a youtube clip of when I say they were better

when was i faulting exactly? honestly, when did i say im faulting shaq?....u showed shaqs near quadruple double against sixers, i said id be impressed if he did it against one of those top teams in the west, and u started showing me his near triple double and double double stats, but i want to see a near quadruple double against one of those top west teams, that simple

Not impressed, huh? He needs to put up quadruple doubles to be at Hakeem's level?

lol the only thing im impressed is with ur mom getting my double doubles in her mouth

wtf was that? So you give up basically?

i gave up? ill say it one more time: u showed shaqs near quadruple double against philly, i said show me him doing that against top teams in the west, u showed me his double doubles and near triple double, i said so wheres that near quadruple double, ur claiming im not impressed with those double doubles and near triple double


u went off subject, show me that near quadruple double man, lets see it

Actually I showed the 44 and 20 game. It was pretty clear I was referring to the 44 and 20 game and it's pretty clear you've ran out of arguments. I mean seriously is this all you have left:
Shaq didn't have a near quadruple double against a better defensive frontcourt than Mutombo and Tyrone Hill. Therefore he isn't as good as Hakeem?
If that's not your argument, none of what you're saying has a point.

You might not even want to respond. Notice how the guy who brings up "ur mom" is never the guy who's winning the argument.

my point is u bragged about Shaq getting a near quadruple double against Sixers, a team they almost swept

Was I somehow wrong in doing that? Following up a 44 and 20 game with a 28, 20, 9 and 8 game against the best defender (or what, 4th best defender in your book?) isn't impressive because it was against a team they "almost" swept?

[LexDaMan]

Mutombo was a better defender because he could expend all his energy on the defensive end. Big Ben has never even been a great post defender.

You say there was no one to contest Shaq for rebounds when the Lakers were the 5th best team in rebounding and as you said (and I'm not making this up), the best if they played in the East. Do you understand that the players who are 1st and 2nd don't determine the rebounding ability of the whole team? You fail to mention that the Rockets were 19th in rebounding and 6th worst in rebounds allowed when they won the '94-95 championship. How's that for rebounding help? Or does it not matter because their 2nd leading rebounder somehow negates that? Olajuwon averaged 10.8 RPG that season btw. When you choose a line of reasoning, you're supposed to apply it across the board, instead of applying it only when it's convenient for your argument.

Id be more impressed if he did it against Spurs, Kings or Blazers back then.

Oh ok, why didn't you say so?

Playoff games against the Kings:
44, 21 and 7 blocks (hey, what do you know, that's actually better than the Sixers game, and it didn't even take an overtime)
43 and 20 (ditto, no overtime)
46 and 17
41 and 17
32 and 18

i like how against philly u were all excited about his near quadruple double, and then when i told u id be more impressed if he did it against those other teams i mentioned, u started bragging about double doubles and one near triple double he had... wheres those near quadruple doubles???

hahahah you're faulting Shaq for not getting near quadruple doubles? Yeah man, he was really struggling... you can really tell we're talking about the most dominant player of all time when you have to bring up how he wasn't getting near quadruple doubles.

I'm referring to the 44 and 20 game that I showed a youtube clip of when I say they were better

when was i faulting exactly? honestly, when did i say im faulting shaq?....u showed shaqs near quadruple double against sixers, i said id be impressed if he did it against one of those top teams in the west, and u started showing me his near triple double and double double stats, but i want to see a near quadruple double against one of those top west teams, that simple

Not impressed, huh? He needs to put up quadruple doubles to be at Hakeem's level?

lol the only thing im impressed is with ur mom getting my double doubles in her mouth

wtf was that? So you give up basically?

i gave up? ill say it one more time: u showed shaqs near quadruple double against philly, i said show me him doing that against top teams in the west, u showed me his double doubles and near triple double, i said so wheres that near quadruple double, ur claiming im not impressed with those double doubles and near triple double


u went off subject, show me that near quadruple double man, lets see it

Actually I showed the 44 and 20 game. It was pretty clear I was referring to the 44 and 20 game and it's pretty clear you've ran out of arguments. I mean seriously is this all you have left:
Shaq didn't have a near quadruple double against a better defensive frontcourt than Mutombo and Tyrone Hill. Therefore he isn't as good as Hakeem?
If that's not your argument, none of what you're saying has a point.

You might not even want to respond. Notice how the guy who brings up "ur mom" is never the guy who's winning the argument.

my point is u bragged about Shaq getting a near quadruple double against Sixers, a team they almost swept

Was I somehow wrong in doing that? Following up a 44 and 20 game with a 28, 20, 9 and 8 game against the best defender (or what, 4th best defender in your book?) isn't impressive because it was against a team they "almost" swept?

they werent a top defender period, Pistons in '04 were a top defender, even though they were in the East as well, it was easy to see their overpowering defensive schemes, Phillys D was OK, they were 5th that year by stats only

[BRockin25]

"Shaq has all the same footwork as Olajuwon," LOL! and burgers always come with fries.... comparing footwork of a soccer player to someone who didnt play sports consistently until he started playin ball in his teen years

What do you know about post footwork lol... #1 youre a kid and #2 you dont know what its like to play the post

[regal]

"Shaq has all the same footwork as Olajuwon," LOL! and burgers always come with fries.... comparing footwork of a soccer player to someone who didnt play sports consistently until he started playin ball in his teen years

What do you know about post footwork lol... #1 youre a kid and #2 you dont know what its like to play the post

I was expecting you to tutor him on footwork, Brock, instead of insulting him and telling him what he knows.

Anyway... I also have to LMAO @ " Shaq having all the same footwork as Hakeem."  No way in hell, homie.  When has Shaq ever faked a turn around jump-hook going to his strong shoulder and then followed it with a step-through?  The Dream Shake alone crushes any notion.  Comparing Hakeem and Shaq in the footwork aspect... don't do that, Brock.  Hakeem had better feet in general to start out with, that combined with his agility and superior fundamentals... he's just on another level.  Maybe you need to watch that Hakeem/Kobe video again.  Hakeem told you in that video, the moves he showcased in the post aren't even for post men... they're for small forwards and guards... guys with agility and a grasp of fundamental footwork from all points on the court.

[BRockin25]

When has Shaq ever faked a turn around jump-hook going to his strong shoulder and then followed it with a step-through?  

This is a Shaq hook fake and attempted step through. Notice how the hook fake is not as quick as Olajuwon's, and even if it was, its a borderline offensive foul that Robinson cant react to, bc he just got muscled, and Shaq is too big

Shaq post move on Robinson	LQ | HQ

Check out young Shaq, who was still too big

Shaq shakes Michael Jordan	LQ | HQ

[regal]

"Shaq has all the same footwork as Olajuwon," LOL! and burgers always come with fries.... comparing footwork of a soccer player to someone who didnt play sports consistently until he started playin ball in his teen years

What do you know about post footwork lol... #1 youre a kid and #2 you dont know what its like to play the post

I was expecting you to tutor him on footwork, Brock, instead of insulting him and telling him what he knows.

Anyway... I also have to LMAO @ " Shaq having all the same footwork as Hakeem."  No way in hell, homie.  When has Shaq ever faked a turn around jump-hook going to his strong shoulder and then followed it with a step-through?  The Dream Shake alone crushes any notion.  Comparing Hakeem and Shaq in the footwork aspect... don't do that, Brock.  Hakeem had better feet in general to start out with, that combined with his agility and superior fundamentals... he's just on another level.  Maybe you need to watch that Hakeem/Kobe video again.  Hakeem told you in that video, the moves he showcased in the post aren't even for post men... they're for small forwards and guards... guys with agility and a grasp of fundamental footwork from all points on the court.

I did tutor him (and you) on post footwork in an earlier post.

Theres a reason you see the Hakeems and McHales do moves that the Currys and Shaqs dont: because they have slighter builds and were quicker players. For example, anybody can do an AI crossover, but it works so well for AI and Derrick Rose because they are quick. Meanwhile, LBJ does it and doesnt get by guys, it just gives him an angle to dip his shoulder and draw a foul.

Shaq cant show his full repertoire routinely, and never really could, being 280+ since coming to the league and 360+ in his prime, because defenders were always waiting to flop. There is an obvious issue of space there.

You know that I know that Hakeems footwork is for all positions. Shaq has mentioned that he studies guard footwork and thats where he gets his footwork from. But lets face it, you hate Shaq so you wouldnt mention that lol. Shaq lacks some fundamentals that Hakeem has (as Ive mentioned) but his footwork is superb

Tutoring me? lol  Funny... I thought about tutoring you after seeing that you said " Shaq has all the same footwork as The Dream. "

Shaq's size does play a part in what he can pull off, but if he never does it... how do you know he can do it?  It's like the tree that falls in the redwoods... if nobody is there to hear it does it make a sound?  Other than that and more to the point, you basically forfeit that Shaq's size holds him back from reaching Hakeem's level of footwork.  Hakeem's soccer background also plays a part is his superior footwork.  Footwork that he put on display for us, unlike Shaquille.

Shaqistotle has said he's studied everything.  You can believe him if you like.  This is the same dude who ballooned to 360lbs. as a Laker because the next best center was Vlade Divac.  He just didn't care.  Sasha Vujacic shoots better free throws than Shaqovic when he's wearing big clown hands and has a blind fold on... of course Shaq's excuse was that the basketball was like a tennis ball in his hand.  All is it is muscle memory and Shaq never cared to learn that either... even when Calvin Murphy offered to help him.

I put Hakeem's displayed/documented footwork in the superb category.  Shaq's not on that level.  Iverson/Derrick Rose are @ different positions than Lebron... so of course.  But in a comparison of centers, guys who match us against one another, Hakeem's feet were just better than any other centers'.

I don't hate Shaq, but I don't like Shaq.  I'm oblivious to his act.  I like Kareem more than any center, but I can keep it real... Hakeem's footwork and overall post repertoire is just superior to Kareem's no matter how many points he's scored and no matter his superior offensive stats.  Kareem just had a money-move and perfected it.  

Does everybody here use the " your biased " argument as their last resort? lol

[BRockin25]

Shaq's size does play a part in what he can pull off, but if he never does it... how do you know he can do it?  It's like the tree that falls in the redwoods... if nobody is there to hear it does it make a sound?  Other than that and more to the point, you basically forfeit that Shaq's size holds him back from reaching Hakeem's level of footwork.

I like Kareem more than any center, but I can keep it real... Hakeem's footwork and overall post repertoire is just superior to Kareem's no matter how many points he's scored and no matter his superior offensive stats.  Kareem just had a money-move and perfected it.  

Does everybody here use the " your biased " argument as their last resort? lol

False! I've seen Shaq show various moves over his career, but not routinely. I wrote as much. And no, me mentioning his size is not forfeiting anything. Footwork is not innate, its something that can be learned. Me and you can reach Hakeem's level of footwork, but it wont do anything for us.

From the tape, I gleaned that Kobe learned more about balance, weightshifiting, and why moves work from Hakeem than the actual foot movements themselves. A weight transfer for Shaq = offensive foul.

Hey man, I've never seen you say a positive word about Shaq. As far as Kareem, agreed.