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Author Topic: So Miami wants Bosh...  (Read 16389 times)
Jack Dempsey
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« Reply #90 on: February 10, 2010, 04:48:21 pm »

The safest move would be not moving at all. Keeping Bosh is better than having Beasley and trading away vets like Calderon and Turk for nothing? They can still play the game. I have said it so many times Turk is overpaid, but he can still play the damn game. His numbers are literally the same as last year except for points because this team has so many scorers, and he now FINALLY is starting to fit in our system. Just cause your not worth your contract, doesn't mean your not valuable as a player.

believe it or not but there's still the possibility that bosh leaves.
and a 31yo turk is playing pretty good but how good of a player will a 33yo turk be?
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ballers101
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« Reply #91 on: February 10, 2010, 05:34:38 pm »

The safest move would be not moving at all. Keeping Bosh is better than having Beasley and trading away vets like Calderon and Turk for nothing? They can still play the game. I have said it so many times Turk is overpaid, but he can still play the damn game. His numbers are literally the same as last year except for points because this team has so many scorers, and he now FINALLY is starting to fit in our system. Just cause your not worth your contract, doesn't mean your not valuable as a player.

believe it or not but there's still the possibility that bosh leaves.
and a 31yo turk is playing pretty good but how good of a player will a 33yo turk be?
For one who hates Miami you sure have a lot of defense towards them (Just saying, an average fan wouldn't care this much). Yes there is the possibility of him leaving, which I said is true, but if he leaves why would you package him with other good players when he himself could land that stuff.

Who is to say 33 year old Turk is playing at the same level. Jamison still is, big Z more or less is, Grant Hill (since he came back from injury version, not superstar version) is. You cannot say what happens 2 years down the line. 2 years down the line Lebron could get in a car accident and his career is over (God forbid).

Point is this trade makes no sense for the Raptors on all fronts.
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LordLeoshes
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2nd Amendment wont b needed til they try taking it


« Reply #92 on: February 11, 2010, 05:49:55 am »

I think Miami's No. 1 plan is to get Wade and Bosh/LBJ on the same team, re-sign Haslem, draft well, and fill out the rest of the roster cheaply.  Then getting that final piece of the puzzle in 2010-2011 when they have a MLE.

I think Miami's No. 2 plan is to sign 2nd-tier FAs.  They'll have over $20M of cap room after re-signing Wade.  The complicated math I posted before.  I think they re-sign Haslem (as 6th man), O'Neal, and maybe even Q-Rich.  And then they go after Boozer, who would make perfect sense for this team (unlike OKC, where you keep pushing him).  They aren't going after Stoudemire - he doesn't fit their system and he needs a Nash-level PG to be effective (which is why he stays in AZ, I think).  With Haslem, O'Neal, and Boozer as their three main bigs (along with probably a rookie or vet minimum C), they'd have the best frontcourt in the East.  They then either draft or sign a decent PG.

I think Miami's No. 3 plan (i.e. Wade leaves) is to get good, decently

I'll agree to disagree with you about Toronto.  They have some decent to good players.  But they are, almost to a man, overpaid for their production.  They also don't have answers for guys like Howard, KG, and even Shaq in the playoffs.  I think they're a 25-30 win team without Bosh.  Same as Cleveland without LBJ.  Both teams have gone all out to keep their superstars with them.  If Bosh or LBJ leaves, it would be catastrophic.  
The loss of Wade is what would be catastrophic, Toronto would still be borderline playoffs and Cleveland still has talent on their roster. Miami has nothing. 


Except for over $40million to get whoever the hell Pat wants. UH DUH.  Roll Eyes

what would TOR, & CLV have ?
Cleveland not so much, but Toronto still has quite a bit of talent....


Both  have some talent but not much hope of improvement. That's all.
but the truth is if you have a smart GM he will had ways to improve your team, no matter what team it is.
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LordLeoshes
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2nd Amendment wont b needed til they try taking it


« Reply #93 on: February 11, 2010, 05:53:27 am »

Quote
And I'd take Haslem over Bargnani any day.  Less points but a better rebounder and much better defender.

Although you made no relavent points, this one shows how much of a foolish homer you are.


Why? He did say Bar gs was a better scorer, while Haslem was the better defender, & rebounder, & it true.
So you would take Bargnani over Haslem because of marginally better defense and marginally better rebounding? Fine then I would take Bowen over Kobe because he is a much better defender. It is about the whole package and Haslem vs Bargnani is not even close.



No Brown-Kobe wasn't close. Bargs is in the same level as Beasley, & half of Heat fans would rather see Haslem start. So you get why it's actually closer then you think?
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Every tyrant in the 20th century began his tyranny by first confiscating guns, & gold from the people over whom he ruled over.

 Hitler, Chaves, Castro, Quadafi, Stalin, Idi Amin, Ma Tse-tung, pol pot, & Kim Jong-il would all agree that gun control works!
LordLeoshes
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2nd Amendment wont b needed til they try taking it


« Reply #94 on: February 11, 2010, 06:00:41 am »

The safest move would be not moving at all. Keeping Bosh is better than having Beasley and trading away vets like Calderon and Turk for nothing? They can still play the game. I have said it so many times Turk is overpaid, but he can still play the damn game. His numbers are literally the same as last year except for points because this team has so many scorers, and he now FINALLY is starting to fit in our system. Just cause your not worth your contract, doesn't mean your not valuable as a player.

believe it or not but there's still the possibility that bosh leaves.
and a 31yo turk is playing pretty good but how good of a player will a 33yo turk be?
For one who hates Miami you sure have a lot of defense towards them (Just saying, an average fan wouldn't care this much). Yes there is the possibility of him leaving, which I said is true, but if he leaves why would you package him with other good players when he himself could land that stuff.

Who is to say 33 year old Turk is playing at the same level. Jamison still is, big Z more or less is, Grant Hill (since he came back from injury version, not superstar version) is. You cannot say what happens 2 years down the line. 2 years down the line Lebron could get in a car accident and his career is over (God forbid).

Point is this trade makes no sense for the Raptors on all fronts.



I just want to ask, Do consider Calderon, & Turk as valuable assets, or burdens that need to be traded?

& i know your not the owner so it wont come out your pocket, but still wanted to here your opinion.
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Every tyrant in the 20th century began his tyranny by first confiscating guns, & gold from the people over whom he ruled over.

 Hitler, Chaves, Castro, Quadafi, Stalin, Idi Amin, Ma Tse-tung, pol pot, & Kim Jong-il would all agree that gun control works!
Jack Dempsey
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« Reply #95 on: February 11, 2010, 07:21:03 am »

For one who hates Miami you sure have a lot of defense towards them (Just saying, an average fan wouldn't care this much). Yes there is the possibility of him leaving, which I said is true, but if he leaves why would you package him with other good players when he himself could land that stuff.

Who is to say 33 year old Turk is playing at the same level. Jamison still is, big Z more or less is, Grant Hill (since he came back from injury version, not superstar version) is. You cannot say what happens 2 years down the line. 2 years down the line Lebron could get in a car accident and his career is over (God forbid).

Point is this trade makes no sense for the Raptors on all fronts.

1)i was talking about toronto, not miami. and i don't hate them, they are just one of my least favourite teams in the NBA but that doesn't change my opinion about their roster. for example, i like orlando but despite having the superman and despite having a great record i don't think they're going anywhere with this roster. shard&VC are getting older and nelson is an average player IMO. dwight can't do it by himself. i'm not that biased and orlando is way better than toronto right now.

2)the "good" players you're talking about will hurt you in the future. a lineup of jack(calderon)/derozan/turk/johnson/bargnani may be solid but won't take you even to the playoffs. you won't have the money (besides the MLE) to sign new players, your draft pick will be somewhere between 5-10 and you won't have almost any cap flexibility. to me, that means mediocrity for a while and that's why i've included them into the bosh trade.

3)hill is playing great for his age and he helps them with his experience but you can't really expect him to lead them anywhere. big Z is an already declining center, they usually last longer and btw, all the three of them have a similar mileage.

I just want to ask, Do consider Calderon, & Turk as valuable assets, or burdens that need to be traded?

& i know your not the owner so it wont come out your pocket, but still wanted to here your opinion.

yeah, i'd be interested as well. i'm pretty sure miami would rather take just bosh or bosh&banks than bosh, hedo&calderon but that would be awful for toronto IMO
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Super_Nintendo_Chalmers
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« Reply #96 on: February 11, 2010, 09:34:48 am »


Calderon is your highest paid PG.  In total, you're paying Jack/Calderon $16-$18M a year for the next five years.  And neither's a top-15 PG.  Good luck with that.  And you're paying $50M from 2010-2011 until 2014-2015 for a center like Bargnani who can't match up against the Howards of the world.  Again, good luck with that.

And I'd take Haslem over Bargnani any day.  Less points but a better rebounder and much better defender.  

Name me 15 PG's better than Calderon

The Bargnani statement is priceless. The last time TO played Orlando, they won. Wanna know why? Because Bargs gave Howard a tough time all night and took him out of his game. The magic have a much better team than TO and if Bargs wasn't able to "match up" against him that game, they wouldn't have won.
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ballers101
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« Reply #97 on: February 11, 2010, 10:57:38 am »

For one who hates Miami you sure have a lot of defense towards them (Just saying, an average fan wouldn't care this much). Yes there is the possibility of him leaving, which I said is true, but if he leaves why would you package him with other good players when he himself could land that stuff.

Who is to say 33 year old Turk is playing at the same level. Jamison still is, big Z more or less is, Grant Hill (since he came back from injury version, not superstar version) is. You cannot say what happens 2 years down the line. 2 years down the line Lebron could get in a car accident and his career is over (God forbid).

Point is this trade makes no sense for the Raptors on all fronts.

1)i was talking about toronto, not miami. and i don't hate them, they are just one of my least favourite teams in the NBA but that doesn't change my opinion about their roster. for example, i like orlando but despite having the superman and despite having a great record i don't think they're going anywhere with this roster. shard&VC are getting older and nelson is an average player IMO. dwight can't do it by himself. i'm not that biased and orlando is way better than toronto right now.

2)the "good" players you're talking about will hurt you in the future. a lineup of jack(calderon)/derozan/turk/johnson/bargnani may be solid but won't take you even to the playoffs. you won't have the money (besides the MLE) to sign new players, your draft pick will be somewhere between 5-10 and you won't have almost any cap flexibility. to me, that means mediocrity for a while and that's why i've included them into the bosh trade.

3)hill is playing great for his age and he helps them with his experience but you can't really expect him to lead them anywhere. big Z is an already declining center, they usually last longer and btw, all the three of them have a similar mileage.

I just want to ask, Do consider Calderon, & Turk as valuable assets, or burdens that need to be traded?

& i know your not the owner so it wont come out your pocket, but still wanted to here your opinion.

yeah, i'd be interested as well. i'm pretty sure miami would rather take just bosh or bosh&banks than bosh, hedo&calderon but that would be awful for toronto IMO
See this is good basketball discussion, I like it.

Orlando is better than Toronto, that is for sure, don't worry, I'm not some super homer crazy person  Cheesy.

The thing about the guys you listed as being a mediocre future, you really don't know what will happen. For all we know Bargnani goes to his true spot at the PF and thrives, because if Bosh leaves it will be in a S&T so some good assets will be coming back (Just like if Wade leaves, good assets will come back, but Toronto still is in better shape than Miami if both their stars leave IMO, don't flame me, I know the deal with the money, but with no Wade it is hard to attract a huge FA although the city is great, they would probably wanna go to a team that is already looking good like the Clippers (yes the clippers if they added a player like Wade would be pretty darn good)). We don't know that if Wade leaves if Beasley turns into a star, it happened with Bosh, Carter left, everyone said we had nothing and woop di doo Bosh becomes a better player than Carter was (IMO of course).

I did not say that Turkoglu will lead them anywhere, just that he could still be contributing at a high level like some of the guys I listed, yes Z is old, but it is not like he can't do anything, he is still a great vet. Acquiring Turkoglu was vital for the team because with that we had our MLE to sign Jack (who has been great all year), get Wright, get Belinelli, and trade to receive Johnson and Weems. Like I said, overpaid, but had we not had him, we would have the same roster as last year vs the depth we have now and the balance of youth and veterans.

Calderon and Turkoglu are assets, overpaid assets mind you, but assets. They can play the game, and they can play it pretty darn well, it is the money that makes them unattractive, but if you just look at them as players, they help you win games. Calderon for example made a 4 point play to ice the game yesterday in Philly when the game was tied (just one example, there are many more). I would not trade Turkoglu right now (as we have won 20 of our last 26 I believe) so we are not exactly a bad team.

We are basing mediocrity on if Bosh leaves, but Bosh leaving is up in the air, just like Wade, just like Lebron, but with all that is going on I do believe Wade is the most likely to leave, if you look at it from the non bias point of view, Bosh on a team that is really hot and has not let up since a poor start 6 games above .500, easy sched remaining and could (not likely) challenge for the 4 seed, Lebron on a team that could win the title, and Wade on a team hoping it signs one of the other 2 in the offseason (and we just heard that Riley is pushing hard for Stodamire indicating that he probably feels the other 2 players are either going to stay or go other ways). The other 2 guys have teams that are build for them and for what they wanted (Bosh and Lebron both have say in the goings on of the team, for example Bosh wanted Turk, and they got him, Bosh wanted Jack, and they got him), not every GM is willing to listen to their player (not saying Riley is like this but Wade said for example he wanted Iverson and they didn't even get him for cheap).

What will happen, who knows, but if Bosh stays, Toronto looks pretty good on all fronts, its just missing a piece or 2(small pieces to help on D and some leadership) to take it over the top. Although Wade is most likely to leave, I think none will leave, they will get an Amare or Boozer and sign another good FA and be a pretty good team.
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Gallo
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« Reply #98 on: February 11, 2010, 11:12:24 am »

IMO once Bosh leaves, Bargnani will explode. Offensively he made big step up. Last year O'Neal / Bargnani combo wasn't bad. I don't say TOR have to bring back O'Neal, but if they find a strong low post player with some defence. This player isn't coming  with a sign and trade i think.
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Jack Dempsey
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« Reply #99 on: February 11, 2010, 12:12:50 pm »

Calderon and Turkoglu are assets, overpaid assets mind you, but assets. They can play the game, and they can play it pretty darn well, it is the money that makes them unattractive, but if you just look at them as players, they help you win games. Calderon for example made a 4 point play to ice the game yesterday in Philly when the game was tied (just one example, there are many more). I would not trade Turkoglu right now (as we have won 20 of our last 26 I believe) so we are not exactly a bad team.

to me, it's their age combined with the length of their contracts that makes them unattractive.

but i can agree with the most you said. also with Gallo's post. if bosh leaves bargnani becomes a +20ppg scorer but i don't think he'd lead them anywhere as the 1st option.
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jmlamerson
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« Reply #100 on: February 11, 2010, 12:28:23 pm »


Calderon is your highest paid PG.  In total, you're paying Jack/Calderon $16-$18M a year for the next five years.  And neither's a top-15 PG. Good luck with that.  And you're paying $50M from 2010-2011 until 2014-2015 for a center like Bargnani who can't match up against the Howards of the world.  Again, good luck with that.

And I'd take Haslem over Bargnani any day.  Less points but a better rebounder and much better defender. 

Name me 15 PG's better than Calderon

The Bargnani statement is priceless. The last time TO played Orlando, they won. Wanna know why? Because Bargs gave Howard a tough time all night and took him out of his game. The magic have a much better team than TO and if Bargs wasn't able to "match up" against him that game, they wouldn't have won.

15 better:

1. Chauncey Billups
2. Aaron Brooks
3. Baron Davis
4. Tyreke Evans
5. Brandon Jennings
6. Jason Kidd
7. Andre Miller
8. Steve Nash
9. Tony Parker
10. Chris Paul
11. Rajon Rondo
12. Derrick Rose
13. Russell Westbrook
14. Deron Williams.; and
15. Jarrett Jack

I’d rather have Conley and Curry too.

And Bargnani will have good games here and there.  If he does well in a best-of-seven series against a real center, then I’ll believe he can be a legit center in the NBA.
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ballers101
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« Reply #101 on: February 11, 2010, 03:40:03 pm »

Calderon and Turkoglu are assets, overpaid assets mind you, but assets. They can play the game, and they can play it pretty darn well, it is the money that makes them unattractive, but if you just look at them as players, they help you win games. Calderon for example made a 4 point play to ice the game yesterday in Philly when the game was tied (just one example, there are many more). I would not trade Turkoglu right now (as we have won 20 of our last 26 I believe) so we are not exactly a bad team.

to me, it's their age combined with the length of their contracts that makes them unattractive.

but i can agree with the most you said. also with Gallo's post. if bosh leaves bargnani becomes a +20ppg scorer but i don't think he'd lead them anywhere as the 1st option.
Well in defence of Calderon, he is 29 and has 3 years left on the deal so will be 32-33 when he is done the deal, so he can still be effective till the end of his contract. He is an effective player, low turnovers, high assists and shooting %, it is just that he may be more effective coming off the bench, had he been making 5 mil a year, then he would be worth his contract, although before his injury that contract seemed pretty darn good.

Turk was just a bad deal, but I see 3 good years of Turk, 1 probably average year, and a year where he is a valuable huge expiring isn't that bad. The thing about him is that he relies on smarts to play the game vs athleticism (he is really not that athletic).

As for Bargnani, I guess we would have to wait and see on him (if Bosh were to leave, which I still do not believe will happen, but anythings possible), truthfully I don't see him as the #1 guy either, he is a very good 2-3 though.
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ballers101
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« Reply #102 on: February 11, 2010, 03:41:23 pm »


Calderon is your highest paid PG.  In total, you're paying Jack/Calderon $16-$18M a year for the next five years.  And neither's a top-15 PG. Good luck with that.  And you're paying $50M from 2010-2011 until 2014-2015 for a center like Bargnani who can't match up against the Howards of the world.  Again, good luck with that.

And I'd take Haslem over Bargnani any day.  Less points but a better rebounder and much better defender. 

Name me 15 PG's better than Calderon

The Bargnani statement is priceless. The last time TO played Orlando, they won. Wanna know why? Because Bargs gave Howard a tough time all night and took him out of his game. The magic have a much better team than TO and if Bargs wasn't able to "match up" against him that game, they wouldn't have won.

15 better:

1. Chauncey Billups
2. Aaron Brooks
3. Baron Davis
4. Tyreke Evans
5. Brandon Jennings
6. Jason Kidd
7. Andre Miller
8. Steve Nash
9. Tony Parker
10. Chris Paul
11. Rajon Rondo
12. Derrick Rose
13. Russell Westbrook
14. Deron Williams.; and
15. Jarrett Jack

I’d rather have Conley and Curry too.

And Bargnani will have good games here and there.  If he does well in a best-of-seven series against a real center, then I’ll believe he can be a legit center in the NBA.

Evans is a SG, I would pick Calderon over Miller, Conley and Curry for sure as Conley is not that great and Curry is also more of a SG. I agree with the rest of the list though. Can't argue with Jack because he took his spot in the lineup.
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dahurt83
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« Reply #103 on: February 11, 2010, 10:46:49 pm »

lol Mike Conley better?  u kidding me..  Mem should of kept Kyle Lowry..  He was the better pg.
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jmlamerson
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« Reply #104 on: February 12, 2010, 08:57:36 am »

Conley's having a pretty great season, and his development is a decent size reason why the Grizzlies are doing so well (although, obviously, not as big as Randolph or Gasol).  I like his potential (he's only 23) to develop into a top tier PG.  If I were rebuilding a team, and my choices were either Conley at his salary and age v. Calderon as his salary and age, I'd take Conley.  I can, of course, see the argument against Conley given his slow start, but he's showing his talent now that he has real teammates and a real coach.

And ballers, you're right that Evans has been playing a lot of SG, but I think that's more a result of Martin being out so much.  When Martin's been healthy, they've started Evans at PG (http://www.82games.com/0910/09SAC3.HTM).  I think that after they dump Udrih and Martin, Evans becomes their PGotF.
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