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Author Topic: Lakers Future  (Read 5028 times)
xduckshoex
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« Reply #60 on: May 09, 2014, 07:04:19 pm »
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new realization, I would not trade wiggins/parker/embiid for Irving either.

I wouldn't trade them for anybody. If you're in a position to draft one of them you need cheap productive players more than you need someone getting paid market value or close to it unless that player is Durant or Lebron.

It would be difficult to trade them too, because you're not likely to get a prime superstar from a contender for any of them. Maybe you can get Love at the deadline if your rookie is having a stellar rookie season, but at that point why would you want to deal?
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regal
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« Reply #61 on: May 09, 2014, 07:16:35 pm »
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I didn't leave out important points, I left out you repeating that you think the Thunder need to post up more.

it was you who took exception to what i said about OKC being a " jump shooting team " and you who listed other jump shooting teams, so that was the topic there thanks to you.  you don't get to slither through my post and switch the topic to " generating looks near the rim " just because you know good and well that San Antonio, Miami, etc. all have guys that they go to on the low block consistently to draw doubles and bring more versatility to the gameplan ( unlike OKC).  you should've taken that into consideration before you started listing teams.  not my fault.

i'm not against jumpshots or shooting 3s..it's the quality of the jump shot that matters to me and OKC is limited in how they gettem.  bottom line.

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Who said that you said anything about "generating looks near the rim"?

then why'd you post it?  why'd you edit out lines in my post and switch topics?  you focused in on " jump-shooting " beforehand, so why the switch?

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Predictability is a coaching issue, not a personnel issue.

prove it.  show me somebody on their team that demands the ball on the block consistently.  we appreciate Durant for what he is, but he's not that..that's why Westbrook's activity/explosiveness is so important/valuable to them. 

what NBA coach can't draw up a low block touch?..other than D'antoni i mean. Lol  you think Spoelstra magically became an expert in posting LeBron?..or was it LeBron working hard at his post game and giving his coach the option?

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The fact is that you're overstating the importance of a post game because the function of the post game is to generate high percentage shots and break down the defense from the inside; how you actually do that doesn't matter.  If you get 30 attempts at the rim and 30 open looks off of ball movement every game it really doesn't matter if you generate them off the drive or in the post. Having the option to do it through the post for the sake of variety can be important, but if you're doing it effectively without it then it doesn't matter.

^see that's that stupid shiit.  if the opposing defense is used to makin the same rotations over and over and over and over, the game is EASY.  maybe you should have picked up a basketball at some point in your life.  just the difference in game preparation from high school to college is EPIC..but NBA playoff basketball is even more ridiculous as far as preparation/focus goes because there's more talent/higher IQs on the floor.

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And then even if it IS the all-important issue you're making it out to be, you're still ignoring that coaching can change that for them a lot easier than trading Westbrook can so you're still wrong.

i didn't ignore that..i considered that and actually agreed with you, but i also said that's not an excuse to pass up an opportunity build a better/more balanced unit.
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Fair enough.
Fair enough..probably the 2nd ugliest season I've ever seen from the Ravens.
Flacco kind of is a bum..Yeah I get that he isn't that good..
regal
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« Reply #62 on: May 09, 2014, 07:18:38 pm »
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I wouldn't trade them for anybody.

lolwat?

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If you're in a position to draft one of them you need cheap productive players more than you need someone getting paid market value or close to it unless that player is Durant or Lebron.

oh ok...good save.  if i were somebody like yourself i'd edit that last part out and just make it look like you said you wouldn't trade the draftees for anybody. Lol
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Fair enough.
Fair enough..probably the 2nd ugliest season I've ever seen from the Ravens.
Flacco kind of is a bum..Yeah I get that he isn't that good..
Death2SmallBall
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« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2014, 07:21:15 pm »
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Maybe you can get Love at the deadline if your rookie is having a stellar rookie season, but at that point why would you want to deal?
yep, and at which point you say lets wait it out a season to try to sign love outright to pair him with said rookie.  That's why I say nearly 4 seasons before la is really cooking again.  
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xduckshoex
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« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2014, 07:25:41 pm »
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it was you who took exception to what i said about OKC being a " jump shooting team " and you who listed other jump shooting teams, so that was the topic there thanks to you.  you don't get to slither through my post and switch the topic to " generating looks near the rim " just because you know good and well that San Antonio, Miami, etc. all have guys that they go to on the low block consistently to draw doubles and bring more versatility to the gameplan ( unlike OKC).  you should've taken that into consideration before you started listing teams.  not my fault.

i'm not against jumpshots or shooting 3s..it's the quality of the jump shot that matters to me and OKC is limited in how they gettem.  bottom line.

wow
much semantics
such dodge
wow

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then why'd you post it?  why'd you edit out lines in my post and switch topics?  you focused in on " jump-shooting " beforehand, so why the switch?

lol there was no switching of topics, just you doing whatever it is you think you're doing here.

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prove it.  show me somebody on their team that demands the ball on the block consistently.  we appreciate Durant for what he is, but he's not that..that's why Westbrook's activity/explosiveness is so important/valuable to them.  

what NBA coach can't draw up a low block touch?..other than D'antoni i mean. Lol  you think Spoelstra magically became an expert in posting LeBron?..or was it LeBron working hard at his post game and giving his coach the option?

I repeat: in the 2014 season the Thunder were the 6th most efficient team when scoring out of post ups. If you think they should do it more that's fine, but that's a coaching issue because clearly the players they have are capable.

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^see that's that stupid shiit.  if the opposing defense is used to makin the same rotations over and over and over and over, the game is EASY.  maybe you should have picked up a basketball at some point in your life.  just the difference in game preparation from high school to college is EPIC..but NBA playoff basketball is even more ridiculous as far as preparation/focus goes because there's more talent/higher IQs on the floor.

The only thing stupid here is your interpretation of my post, acting like I said there is no value in posting up when I clearly said that it can be important.

But the fact of the matter is that if you're successful without it then you're successful without it. The Thunder are currently putting up almost 110 points per 100 possessions in the playoffs(close to what they did during the season) despite playing one of the stingiest defensive teams in the Grizzlies for most of their games. Their problems have largely been on the defensive end, where their defensive efficiency has risen almost 2 full points.

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i didn't ignore that..i considered that and actually agreed with you, but i also said that's not an excuse to pass up an opportunity build a better/more balanced unit.

Yes it is because you win titles with talent, not balance.
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joshfarc
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« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2014, 08:16:37 pm »
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As a Laker fan I am annoyed watching every damn Clipper game (though they can be fun to watch)... Stern totally screwed us because Sterling was always too cheap to make a good team in LA, the commish decided to do it for him!

CP3/Meeks/Kobe/Hill/Gasol  w/Swaggy P 6th man, Wes Johnson, Nash part-time, Farmar, Kaman?

This year we could of made it to the friggin playoffs with Chris Paul...


*I'm not jaded (hah). The Lakers need to hope Exum slips or we move up the draft, it appears the Magic are in love with him, though seeing Embid possibly fall to us could work out, imagine him slipping to 5-6 because of injury (while he was the #1 pick when healthy).  The big man curse... as this didn't happen with Irving at Duke.  

Or we just fix the lottery, land Wiggens or Jabari, Kobe comes back full strength 25/5/5 47%FG and Nash comes back 12ppg 7apg 50%FG (25mpg).... sound good?  And Pau signs for dirt cheap....

Also, we should sign Vasquez to the Lakers for like 5mil a year max, get him for a cheap deal.


PS: There are NBA Playoffs still going on, but I guess since the Lakers, Celtics and Knicks aren't in nobody cares?

GO SPURS!
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 08:33:44 pm by joshfarc » Logged

Death2SmallBall
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« Reply #66 on: May 09, 2014, 08:39:52 pm »
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Yep about pau, some are certain he's done or will leave town..

If Lakers want to full rebuild, seems they'd bottom out at least one more season, I mean unless lebron wants to sign with la lol.  Otherwise rolling with kobe/pau ain't horrible, roll dice and figure both will come back rejuvenated. I'm stretching Nash either way, he's done imo. Say what you will those two guys but they are champions, surround the two geezers with youth a la sas.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 08:42:03 pm by Death2SmallBall » Logged
MarcoKB24
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« Reply #67 on: May 09, 2014, 09:31:16 pm »
+1

If Nash get stretched that means like 3 millions in cap space gone for the next 3 years. Better have him "play" out this year and have him completely off the books after that.
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« Reply #68 on: May 09, 2014, 09:42:59 pm »
+1

Yep about pau, some are certain he's done or will leave town..

If Lakers want to full rebuild, seems they'd bottom out at least one more season, I mean unless lebron wants to sign with la lol.  Otherwise rolling with kobe/pau ain't horrible, roll dice and figure both will come back rejuvenated. I'm stretching Nash either way, he's done imo. Say what you will those two guys but they are champions, surround the two geezers with youth a la sas.

Yea I feel you about Pau, I was sorta being sarcastic about "getting Jabari or Wiggens, Kobe back at 25/5/5 and Nash back 25mpg, sign Pau, etc"

Objectively from a Laker fan:  Pau does love LA, and he did strongly dislike D'Antoni and the system and type of style it forced him to play.  But now he is gone, so I think that gives the Lakers like a 25% chance of keeping Pau, hah.  I just really see Pau going to join lil baby brother Marc in Memphis to form a lethal front-court and play with his brother in the NBA.  I could be wrong (would Memphis have to totally lose Zbo?)... or Lakers sign-n-trade Pau to the Grizzlies for.... Ed David? haha.  

I do think Pau Gasol could go to Memphis, or re-sign with LA, but the problem is he's coming off a greatly improved statistical season (result of D'Antoni offense).  Gasol put up 17+points, 10 rebounds, 3 assists, 1.5 blocks a game showing range on his shot too.  He still has 2 or so years of solid starting caliber play left, though he does need a shot blocker at PF/C next to him (like Marc, hah).

I could see some random team throw money at him tempting him... but a return to his original team in Memphis with brother Marc, point-guard Conley and gritty playoff team, I just see it as most plausible.
------------------------------------------------------------
LAKERS 2014 PLAYER SUMMARY:


Steve Nash: I don't think he's 100% done.  I think he will either go through training camp and retire (which I believe clears cap), or he will show in training camp and be able to play 20 minutes or so a night as the starting PG that plays 8 minutes in the 1st and 3rd quarters, and then the final 3-5 minutes of close games.  If he isn't in shape to do that (and thinks he will have a season like this past year) I do think he will choose to retire.... I can't imagine him wanting to play with all his injuries if he can only get in 30 games...

Also he is a decent expiring contract that could be traded, rather than retire, he could be used as an expiring deal that is bought out or waived (or then retired) to maybe move up the draft or simply clear cap for 2015 summer (rather than possibly do that contract thing that puts 3mil for 3 years instead of 9 mil next year).
-----------------------------------------------------------

D'Antoni did get a ton of players a lot of game time and with the pace he really gave the Lakers a great look at which players from this season they should keep and which players are still a work in progress.  I thank him for that, as he was able to really allow us to see what kind of production these unproven 24 year old and younger type players can do, as well as Kelly our solid 2nd round pick glue man.

D'Antoni showed us that:

JODIE MEEKS is a solid rotation player worth keeping (at the right price).  He could be due for a solid contract this summer after averaging 15.7ppg efficiently with improved defense and 1.4 steals a night (47%FG 40%3pt 87%FT), and is a perfect starting SG on a team with a SF/PG that create (put him on the Jazz or Kings, Philly w/draft pick Jabari, and he could be the role player starting SG).

NICK YOUNG went from unknown to most fans into "Swaggy P" the offensive guru (volume shooter) that somehow gets it done on offense (imagine if he had a good shot selection).  He lead the Lakers as the 6th man at 17.9 points a game (44%FG, 39%3PT, 83%FT 4.5FTA's) all in 28.3 minutes a game off the bench. Sure he had the green light and often took over the offense with a crazy high usage rate, and his defense is still lacking, but he is basically Jamal Crawford lite, and COULD land a big contract, though I think his stats were somewhat meaningless (as was the entire losing teams, but especially Youngs, who's points often came in 4th quarters when they were down 20+ points with no pressure; empty stats).  Does a team still bite on him as the next 6th Man of The Year and offer him 5+mil a year?

WES JOHNSON is still a very streaky shooter.  But after playing SG his first 3 seasons, he showed he belongs at SF (and PF with some matchups) as a whole.  His shooting is still way too inconsistent, but he's become a good defender, and could become a great lock-down defender and 3pt shooter.  Career high FG% this year (only 43%) but also 1.1 steals and 1.0 blocks a game help show his defensive prowess.  Still near 40% from trey too.... hopefully we can keep him for the minimum or close another year.  He could prove to become a nice piece, especially at SF next to Kobe at SG.

JORDAN HILL has always been a per minute beast since joining the NBA, always a solid PER rating (this year tied for the best at 19.3 PER with Pau Gasol); he just needed more minutes, and D'Antoni finally gave him them.  This year he averaged 9.7 points and 7.4 rebounds w/ 0.8 blocks a game in 20.8 minutes.... his PER36 is around 17 points and 13 rebounds w/ 1.5 blocks. He's entering his prime years and I am not sure the Lakers will be able to keep him; some team is destined to offer him 5-7 million a year.  The Jazz, Hawks, Suns, and many other teams would love his services as a starting PF or C, or as the main backup PF/C that gets 25 minutes a night consistently.  Maybe the Lakers give him a big one year deal as they wait for next summer.

D'ANTONI AND THE TRIO OF POTENTIAL STUD SHOOTING GUARDS:

All players got a solid amount of PT, none played a ton, but enough to take the sample size and compare the 3 young guards and their numbers....

PER36 Stats:

-XAVIER HENRY: 17.1 Ppg, 4.5 Rpg, 2.0 Apg, 1.7 STL; 42%FG 35%3PT 66%FT

-KENT BAZEMORE: 16.9 Ppg, 4.3 Rpg, 4.0 Apg, 1.7 STL; 45%FG 37%3PT 64%FT

-MARSHON BROOKS: 18.2 Ppg, 4.7 Rpg, 3.3 Apg, 1.9 STL; 49%FG, 58%3PT, 69%FT

I honestly believe ALL THREE of these players will become NBA starters or key rotation guys on NBA teams in their futures.  All can shoot and score, all have shown they can create and pass, all have shown they can play a team game while also getting their points, and ALL HAVE SHOWN US THEY CAN GET TO THE FREE THROW LINE.... PROBLEM BEING THEY CAN'T SHOOT FT'S.......

Out of those 3 players, do the Lakers get to keep them all for minimums?  Or do other teams see that their is serious potential if these players develop some FT shooting and improve their team play and IQ, especially as all of them are 25 or younger and have the best NBA years ahead of them.  I am not as high on Xavier as the rest of Laker fans, though he was entertaining this season.  I would try to keep all 3 though, maybe on one year inflated contracts to see if any of them breakout as consistent players which would make them great rotation players or starters.  Personally I love Bazemore at 23 years old, with combo guard skills and a nice lefty touch.  Brooks had a solid rookie year and hasn't gotten much chance since then (Brooks reminds me more of a Nick Young type player).  If any of these guys can get their FT% up to 75-80% they will become legit players in my mind.

D'Antoni really is great at getting the most out of his players, even if they are trying to lose and go through 20 players ont heir roster throughout the season.  He had Steve Blake averaging a career high 7.6 assists, Young career high in points, Gasol went from 13 and 9 last year to 17 and 10 this year, Meeks had a career year, Kaman's PER36 was 21ppg 12rpg, Jordan Hill had his best year 19.3 PER, and he got Xavier/Brooks/Bazemore to really show what they can do (and expose their FT shooting), while also making Kendall Marshall (who was traded by the Suns and waived by the Wizards) look like a legit NBA PG and career season (I personally am sick of Marshall now).  

But once again, even in a losing season, D'Antoni has made even more players a lot more money this summer than they would of got had they played on another bad team playing a normal pace and game.  I think guys like Marion and QRich, Nick Young this summer, they all owe D'Antoni 50% of their contracts. hah

*PS: I am just discussing how D'Antoni makes players appear better than they actually are as well as getting the most out of them (by playing a fast pace and giving them the green light). I am not saying he is a great coach (not that he's a bad coach), but simply stating what the Lakers players did this season and what the result around the NBA is regarding fans as well as the NBA Franchises and off-season signings to come.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 09:48:05 pm by joshfarc » Logged

Kemba2MKG
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« Reply #69 on: May 10, 2014, 12:27:13 am »
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Lakers need to let Gasol walk, keep their draft pick this year (and make a smart pick) then ride it out and hope to also get a stud in the '15 draft to make one last run with Kobe.
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regal
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« Reply #70 on: May 10, 2014, 08:26:15 am »
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lol you made this all about OKC needing to change personnel so they can post up more, then when you found out that they were already the 6th most efficient post up team in the league you started making up all of this nonsense. I already asked you where I claimed that you said something you didn't say, you ignored it which tells me all I need to know about that accusation.

nerp, i didn't make anything " all about changing for post ups "..my point from the very beginning was about balance in general.  we're goin down this particular road right now because of you..you just see what you wanna see and latch onto whatever you like.  posting is a part of that balance, yes, but the very first thing i pointed to was taking the ball out of Westbrook's hands, enhancing ball movement and bringing along Lamb and Jackson and spreading out their talent with a Parker addition. 

you're the one making up shiit and editing people posts to help you switch angles..i already pointed out where you did that just as i always do.  you started by editing out what i said about Phil Jackson earlier and you tried to make out like i didn't name him as a coach who came in and immediately put a team over the top..you did the same in the Melo thread a while back and many times before.  everybody here knows how you get down..you do it to them too. Lol  but the shiit is unsuccessful everytime when i'm the target..i know you know that.  you just need to do a better job of keeping that in mind. 

wow
such dodge
wow

No U just now Lol

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lol there was no switching of topics, just you doing whatever it is you think you're doing here.

then why'd you edit and switch?

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I repeat: in the 2014 season the Thunder were the 6th most efficient team when scoring out of post ups. If you think they should do it more that's fine, but that's a coaching issue because clearly the players they have are capable.

nerp...i repeat, it's both.  this isn't an issue of ability.  if Durant demanded the ball down there more often they'd go to him more.  posting's just not his preferred attack.  never has been.  not in college, not now.  in Brook's case, he knows it's not Durant's preferred attack, he knows Durant is slight, and he knows Durant has a pretty good impact as a shooter outside.  Brooks is basically an enabler here.

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The only thing stupid here is your interpretation of my post, acting like I said there is no value in posting up when I clearly said that it can be important.

i didn't act like anything..i responded to what you said.  you said a team's offensive approach doesn't matter if they're doing one thing effectively and i said that shiit was stupid.  it was.  there is no team that does 1 thing so well that they can totally block out other aspects and win a championship.  NBA playoff basketball is chess, not checkers..that's partly why the Rockets are out..they play checkers offensively.  the other part is their defense. 

now, give the HOU credit for tryin to expand their attack against Portland and going to the post more, but too little too late.  Dwight's not the quintessential post threat that you can count on to make the right decisions in general, but especially if you're about to heap that level of responsibility on him after not doing so all season.   

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But the fact of the matter is that if you're successful without it then you're successful without it.

successful?  where are OKC's championship banners?  very early in this argument, we talked about " switching coaches " and we listed coaches that came in and put teams over the top in terms winning the title, so don't talk to me about " success " when the Thunder eventually go home losers every year.  what they've been doing hasn't been good enough. 

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The Thunder are currently putting up almost 110 points per 100 possessions in the playoffs(close to what they did during the season) despite playing one of the stingiest defensive teams in the Grizzlies for most of their games. Their problems have largely been on the defensive end, where their defensive efficiency has risen almost 2 full points.

see the above.  and again, like the Rockets..defense is just one of OKC's issues.

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Yes it is because you win titles with talent, not balance.

actually, no..you win with both.  it's funny how you've been tryin to paint me as " guy who's harping on 1 thing " in this, when in reality and from the very start i told you " BOTH " and now you're turning into " guy who's harping on 1 thing ".  i love it.  continue. Lol
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Fair enough.
Fair enough..probably the 2nd ugliest season I've ever seen from the Ravens.
Flacco kind of is a bum..Yeah I get that he isn't that good..
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« Reply #71 on: May 10, 2014, 08:27:49 am »
+1

Lakers need to let Gasol walk, keep their draft pick this year (and make a smart pick) then ride it out and hope to also get a stud in the '15 draft to make one last run with Kobe.

they're not making 1 last run with Kobe and a couple lotto picks, breh.  not a real run anyway
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Fair enough.
Fair enough..probably the 2nd ugliest season I've ever seen from the Ravens.
Flacco kind of is a bum..Yeah I get that he isn't that good..
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« Reply #72 on: May 10, 2014, 11:35:10 am »
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the 15' pick has been traded to phoenix in the Nash trade and is top 5 protected. It's the same situation with the New Orleans pick that may be going to Philly in this draft.
So basically the Lakers either have to tank/lose hard and get a top 5 pick in the 15' draft(may be ideal actually), miss the playoffs and give a lotto pick to phoenix(may be pretty bad) or make the playoffs and thus give a mid to late first rounder. The first two options seem unfortunately the likeliest, so I hope for the 1st one...
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 11:46:12 am by MarcoKB24 » Logged

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xduckshoex
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« Reply #73 on: May 10, 2014, 12:16:28 pm »
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nerp, i didn't make anything " all about changing for post ups "..my point from the very beginning was about balance in general.

...and specifically about how they allegedly need to post up more.
 
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we're goin down this particular road right now because of you..you just see what you wanna see and latch onto whatever you like.

Yeah, I talk about what I want to talk about, just like everyone else does. It doesn't really matter.

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you're the one making up shiit and editing people posts to help you switch angles..i already pointed out where you did that just as i always do.  you started by editing out what i said about Phil Jackson earlier and you tried to make out like i didn't name him as a coach who came in and immediately put a team over the top..you did the same in the Melo thread a while back and many times before.  everybody here knows how you get down..you do it to them too. Lol  but the shiit is unsuccessful everytime when i'm the target..i know you know that.  you just need to do a better job of keeping that in mind. 

lol none of this "editing" matters because it doesn't change the meaning of anything you said, you're just being a baby because for all your talk about how they need to change the roster to post up more you can't argue with the fact that the players they have already do an effective job, so instead of acknowledging that you keep the focus on this.

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nerp...i repeat, it's both.  this isn't an issue of ability.  if Durant demanded the ball down there more often they'd go to him more.  posting's just not his preferred attack.  never has been.  not in college, not now.  in Brook's case, he knows it's not Durant's preferred attack, he knows Durant is slight, and he knows Durant has a pretty good impact as a shooter outside.  Brooks is basically an enabler here.

...which is why it's a coaching issue and not a personnel issue.  You can't argue that the Thunder players don't do well in their post up opportunities, so if they need to do it more then it's up to the coach to strategize ways to make it happen. They don't trade a prime superstar for inferior players to do it because that's a stupid idea.

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i didn't act like anything..i responded to what you said.  you said a team's offensive approach doesn't matter if they're doing one thing effectively and i said that shiit was stupid.

Not what I said, ironic considering how much time you've spent crying about me editing irrelevant parts of your post out for brevity.

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successful?  where are OKC's championship banners?  very early in this argument, we talked about " switching coaches " and we listed coaches that came in and put teams over the top in terms winning the title, so don't talk to me about " success " when the Thunder eventually go home losers every year.  what they've been doing hasn't been good enough. 

That's the narrowest definition of "success" ever, and it's trying to reduce something influenced by a ton of factors down to just their offense. What we know is that the Thunder have spent the last 5 years as an elite level offense in both the regular season and the playoffs so you can't really criticize their approach. They don't lose in the postseason because teams stop their offense, they lost in the postseason because they can't find a way to stop the other teams offense as shown by the fact that it's typically their defense that gets worse in the postseason(when defenses typically get better).

Did you watch the game last night? Down the stretch of a close game the Clippers went away from the pick and roll and threw it to Griffin in the post(they ran one pick and roll with Paul in the last 5 minutes). The Thunder stuck with the pick and roll(almost exclusively starting possessions with Westbrook running it) and they were the ones who pulled away and won the game. How you generate your good looks does not matter at all.

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actually, no..you win with both.  it's funny how you've been tryin to paint me as " guy who's harping on 1 thing " in this, when in reality and from the very start i told you " BOTH " and now you're turning into " guy who's harping on 1 thing ".  i love it.  continue. Lol

This doesn't even make sense.
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"Often all it takes is a literary allusion to the idea that truth only exists in the plural to make the defenders of one truth or another sense danger, mortal danger."
Kemba2MKG
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« Reply #74 on: May 10, 2014, 11:58:52 pm »
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they're not making 1 last run with Kobe and a couple lotto picks, breh.  not a real run anyway

Well maybe one lotto pick, Love and Kobe?
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