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Author Topic: TOR - BOS  (Read 6878 times)
knightofdreamz
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« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2014, 09:25:04 pm »

Without any research, the last player that got you 3 1st rounders I can think of was Shaq in 2004 but I'm not sure of that one either. He was traded to the Heat for Odom, Butler, Grant and I think 3 1st rounders. The trade you proposed is better than what the Lakers got back then IMO. And you CAN'T compare Jeff Green to Shaq.

Expiring contracts and ONE 1st rounder is all I'd offer for Jeff Green.

You really seem to be overlooking the fact that the only reason its 3 picks is because the Raptors only valuable piece to give up. The Celtics, im sure, would rather have a guaranteed good player in the mix, but the Raptors only good tradable young players that would be worth Green are DD and Jonas. And we know neither of those guys are moving and it would also defeat the purpose of a trade like this.

Even forgetting 3 picks -again, i cant help but stress that they are all going to be bottom 2/3rds picks. NOT LOTTERY, which lottery is what holds real draft value, not 20+ - can you start naming players that went for 1 or 2 firsts plus 1 or 2 guaranteed talent young players? That guaranteed young talent is more valuable then a 20+ pick.
Not every draft is last season. Most drafts picks 20-30 are not much different in the "chances" category, from 31-40. If this trade involved a top pick, you'd have a good argument, but it does not and the talent exchange is the difference between the Raptors losing in the first round and winning the East. Put into those terms, yes, 3 20+ picks over the next two years (with two early 2nd rounders coming back) are more then worth it. Anyway lets go over a few recent trades to see how fair of a deal this actually is.....

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DWill for Derrick Favors, Devin Harris, cash, a 2011 1st round draft pick and a 2013 1st round draft pick.

So... two first round picks in the teens, a developing PF/C who has always been projected to be around a 20/10. Money. And of course Devin Harris who was for salary purposes. All for an above average PG who is not really much better than Devon Harris. But even if he was, even if we considered him to be a 20/10 instead of a 16/7, this is basically saying that the extra 4 pt average and 3ast average is worth two firsts, a projected 20/10 center and a replacement PG... oh and cash.  


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Eddy Curry + Antonio Davis + 07 1st was traded to NYK for Jermaine Jackson, Mike Sweetney, Tim Thomas, a 2006 1st round draft pick (LaMarcus Aldridge), a 2007 1st round draft pick (Joakim Noah), a 2007 2nd round draft pick (Kyrylo Fesenko) and a 2009 2nd round draft pick (Jon Brockman).

So apparently Curry and a first was worth 3 players (2 were actually good) and picks that equated to Aldridge and Noah. Plus, 2 extra 2nd round picks, 1 having a semi decent career for a 2nd round draftee.


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Nash traded by the Phoenix Suns to the Los Angeles Lakers for a 2013 1st round draft pick, a 2013 2nd round draft pick , a 2014 2nd round draft pick and a 2015 1st round draft pick.

Reminder, this was not Nash from 2006. It was Nash in 2012, a man with nothing but back issues, going on 37 years old and who we had already seen a big decline in. But apparently 2 first round picks, 2 second and massively overpaying was his value for a team that was looking to put themselves over the top (this is the position the Raptors would be in).

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Traded by the Charlotte Bobcats to the Portland Trail Blazers for Dante Cunningham, Sean Marks, Joel Przybilla, cash, a 2011 1st round draft pick and a 2014 1st round draft pick.

So, Gerald Wallace (who, im betting you value Green more then him) had a trade value of two firsts (both better picks then what is suggested in this bos/tor trade, one being lottery with the other right out of the lottery), 2 expiring contracts, a solid depth center and a few million dollars.

I could bring up Melo, but im sure people would be offended by that. But, imo Green might... maybe... might be right below Melo. Green is definitely a better defender, leader, consistent, and has a much better contract. But Melo went for 3 picks and half a team. Kind of just shows you what over-hyping and names can do.


So given the trades we know happen in the NBA and how teams value players, IMO simply 3 picks that we know will be in the later stages of the first round and expiring, is possibly underpayment for Green (if we are going by the trades we know happen and how players are valued).
In all the other trades cited the team giving up the good player received at least one guaranteed quality player  and at least 2 first round picks, then sometimes up to two more seconds and possibly the addition of cash in the trade.That guaranteed quality player is not happening in this trade, so the Celtics have to have a real reason to trade him. And unless you are suggesting Jonas gets thrown into the mix, its going to have to be full value in picks.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 09:43:20 pm by knightofdreamz » Logged

Jack Dempsey
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« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2014, 07:41:43 am »

Deron Williams was a 27 year old Top 3 PG in the league entering his prime. He also lead his team to the WCF two seasons before that trade and was even considered a dark horse candidate in MVP conversations. That was his worth at the time and Jeff Green isn't anywhere near the player Williams was in 2011.

And do you consider the other trades fair? IMO they were extremly loopsided. We could bring up the Vince Carter trade to NJN as well but those kind of trades don't show the real picture.
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Fitz
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« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2014, 08:44:15 am »

With the current state of the Knicks, I would not be surprised if that 2016 pick ended up in the lottery barring a massive overhaul during the offseason.

Anyway, the Raptors don't need Jeff Green, a slightly above average combo forward, badly enough to trade away any potential building blocks for the future. DeRozan will be back, Ross continues to grow, Lowry is an all-star (despite the insistence that the Raptors would be better off without him), and JV is going to be a very good big man in this league. They also have a 3rd scorer off the bench in Lou Williams. If they aren't a contender already, Jeff Green is not going to put them over the top.
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Minichcc
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« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2014, 12:57:37 pm »

You're an idiot. T Ross, a 2nd rounder and salary filler like Landry Fields would get the raptors Jeff Green. Btw.... when you are saying that a team is improving you would use "past" not "passed"
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knightofdreamz
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« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2014, 05:07:22 pm »

Deron Williams was a 27 year old Top 3 PG in the league entering his prime.

And a lot of people also evaluated him as an average PG who was a product of Jerry Sloan. Obviously the Nets listened to the wrong people. That does not escape the fact that we knew what he was and one of his possible outcomes.... which happened.


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He also lead his team to the WCF two seasons before that trade and was even considered a dark horse candidate in MVP conversations. That was his worth at the time and Jeff Green isn't anywhere near the player Williams was in 2011.

Stacked Jazz team working under Jerry Sloan.... see above.


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And do you consider the other trades fair? IMO they were extremly loopsided. We could bring up the Vince Carter trade to NJN as well but those kind of trades don't show the real picture.

I dont consider them fair, i dont consider them unfair. I consider them as showing you the value of players in the NBA and what they tend to go for. You can agree or disagree, it does not matter. My point is, that is 100% entirely realistic to suggest that 3 20+ first rounders is a viable and realistic trade for Jeff Green given what we know players of similar status and caliber go for.

And lets take a look at what the Celtics felt Green was worth shall we?
They potentially lost the chance at another title for the price of Jeff Green, and knew it when they made that trade.
OKC, went to the finals and the WCFs 3 out of 4 years with that trade.

So please, what is "the real picture" here? The "real " picture is that a 27 year old at 32mpg averaging nearly 20 on a team intentionally tanking, butg is also good enough to be on OKC and produce, is not worth the equivalent of what most likely amounts to 3 depth role players? And we get this "real picture" becuase... what? Because we know players of his caliber and age more often the not get traded for 2 firsts and 2 or 3 players that are valuable?
I dont get it. I honestly dont get how you're ignoring Green's value to be more then what i suggested, let alone your idea of one late pick and a 3ppg 3rd string crap expiring player. We've seen teams give more for a pick that is 5 spots ahead of the pick they give up. Let alone for an established player in his prime.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 05:10:31 pm by knightofdreamz » Logged

knightofdreamz
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« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2014, 05:15:08 pm »

You're an idiot. T Ross, a 2nd rounder and salary filler like Landry Fields would get the raptors Jeff Green. Btw.... when you are saying that a team is improving you would use "past" not "passed"

So then do it.
It does not take basketball genius to know this teams time is limited and they need another option if they want to do anything beyond the first round.
Oh, you mean, Ainge would record that conversation and send it around to all the other GMs to show how stupid the Raptors are? It would kind of be the opposite of what we saw with the Hornets and 6ers the other season.

BTW, when you're reading a relatively long post, understand that a spelling error or two may occur and the person writing, might not give a ***.


Here's something that people never consider with the Raptors, why they can never land good free agents and why their window is always very limited. Taxes.
Most Raptors players are citizens of both the US and Canada. Which means they are paying taxes in both Canada, the US and depending on the state they live in within the states, state X.
By the time all is said done 50%+ of their check is going to taxes, plus another 10% for the agent. So if a guy gets 10 mill a year, before he even gets his hands on any of the money 6 mill is gone (on the conservative side). He could continue to deal with that, or go to a Texas or Florida team and face about 13% taxes.

I bring this up to further emphasize the dire situation the Raptors are in when they start winning and the second they start being a playoff team, that window is closing.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 05:59:25 pm by knightofdreamz » Logged

Fitz
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« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2014, 05:27:52 pm »

Last year the Bulls traded Luol Deng, a roughly equivalent player to Jeff Green (arguably better), for:
-A top 10 protected Sacramento 1st round pick
-A 2015 Cleveland 2nd rounder
-A 2016 Portland 2nd rounder
-The right to swap 1st round picks with Cleveland in '15.

That is much less of a haul than you are expecting the Celtics to get for Green.
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Jack Dempsey
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« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2014, 05:30:06 pm »

And a lot of people also evaluated him as an average PG who was a product of Jerry Sloan. Obviously the Nets listened to the wrong people. That does not escape the fact that we knew what he was and one of his possible outcomes.... which happened.


Stacked Jazz team working under Jerry Sloan.... see above.

It's easy to say that NOW. But back then he was considered a top 3 PG in the league and had some value. Jeff Green isn't a top 10 Forward in the NBA let alone top 3.

And lets take a look at what the Celtics felt Green was worth shall we?
They potentially lost the chance at another title for the price of Jeff Green, and knew it when they made that trade.
OKC, went to the finals and the WCFs 3 out of 4 years with that trade.

So basically you're saying Boston should demand 3 1st rounders for a player that actually made them worse? Sure, they can always demand it but the problem is, they won't get it.

So please, what is "the real picture" here? The "real " picture is that a 27 year old at 32mpg averaging nearly 20 on a team intentionally tanking, butg is also good enough to be on OKC and produce, is not worth the equivalent of what most likely amounts to 3 depth role players? And we get this "real picture" becuase... what? Because we know players of his caliber and age more often the not get traded for 2 firsts and 2 or 3 players that are valuable?
I dont get it. I honestly dont get how you're ignoring Green's value to be more then what i suggested, let alone your idea of one late pick and a 3ppg 3rd string crap expiring player. We've seen teams give more for a pick that is 5 spots ahead of the pick they give up. Let alone for an established player in his prime.

I'm sorry, how many draft picks did you get for Rondo, a player who has more value than Green?
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knightofdreamz
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« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2014, 06:06:20 pm »

It's easy to say that NOW. But back then he was considered a top 3 PG in the league and had some value. Jeff Green isn't a top 10 Forward in the NBA let alone top 3.

No no no.
Read what i said.
Even then, many people questioned if his inflated stats was a result of Jerry Sloan's system. Yes, its much easier to say now but my point is that it was being said back then too. Just because you listened to the wrong person does not mean it was not being said.


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So basically you're saying Boston should demand 3 1st rounders for a player that actually made them worse? Sure, they can always demand it but the problem is, they won't get it.

Green made them worse? Oh, you mean the lack of any kind of post presence made them worse.
Yah... Green was not supposed to fix that. He was also not supposed to make them contend. The big three was supposed to make them contend and then the big three broke up. *** kind of went down hill for them.


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I'm sorry, how many draft picks did you get for Rondo, a player who has more value than Green?

2.
And a guy who is sixth man material.
And a solid role player.

Again, pay attention here.
Every single instance i gave you, the point was to show you the value of players and to show you that almost every single one of those players went for at least 2 firsts AAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNDDDDDDDDDDDDDD valued players. You get that?
The AAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Understand the word?
So if the AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD is not there, then what?

BTW, notice that the "and" is already a higher value then said picks. And again... that "and" is not in this deal at all.
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knightofdreamz
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« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2014, 06:11:26 pm »

Last year the Bulls traded Luol Deng, a roughly equivalent player to Jeff Green (arguably better), for:
-A top 10 protected Sacramento 1st round pick
-A 2015 Cleveland 2nd rounder
-A 2016 Portland 2nd rounder
-The right to swap 1st round picks with Cleveland in '15.

That is much less of a haul than you are expecting the Celtics to get for Green.

That is 2 firsts and 2 seconds.
One of those firsts, could be 11 and actually bring in a player of value.
20+ picks are not known for really valuable players. Even solid role players are a 50/50 shot after 18 or so.
No, thats not "much less". If you want to suggest a number 11-12 pick, plus one other first and no seconds for Green, im all for that. But the Celtics would not be getting that value would they?

Again i feel the urge to direct you people to some draft boards. Last year, was a fluke, that *** does not happen every year. Only about once a decade. In typical drafts, your chances of getting a starting quality player are reduced by about 80% after pick 14.
And the one thing all of these trades seem to have in common, that two of you seem to claim is less value, is they contain either a starting quality player or a limited lottery pick. THAT is part of the value of the trade, something that again, i cannot help but stress, is entirely missing from any trade i suggested. Its kind of a quality versus quantity kind of thing.

P.S.
"-A top 10 protected Sacramento 1st round pick"
You understand that if that does not happen within the next two years or so, it goes unprotected right?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 06:17:35 pm by knightofdreamz » Logged

Fitz
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« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2014, 06:28:15 pm »

That is 2 firsts and 2 seconds.
One of those firsts, could be 11 and actually bring in a player of value.
20+ picks are not known for really valuable players. Even solid role players are a 50/50 shot after 18 or so.
No, thats not "much less". If you want to suggest a number 11-12 pick, plus one other first and no seconds for Green, im all for that. But the Celtics would not be getting that value would they?

Again i feel the urge to direct you people to some draft boards. Last year, was a fluke, that *** does not happen every year. Only about once a decade. In typical drafts, your chances of getting a starting quality player are reduced by about 80% after pick 14.
That is one first and the right to move up a few spots probably. Not 2 firsts. That is for a guy who was an all-star and was playing really well at the time offensively at the time and is an elite defender (which Green is not).

You are asking Toronto to give up 3 first round picks, one of which could be in the lottery, and nice big man in Amir Johnson for an above average combo forward and the right to pay Gerald Wallace for another season and a half. Toronto would never do that. Like I said before, if they aren't already a championship contender, trading for Jeff Green doesn't put them over the top.
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knightofdreamz
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« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2014, 10:32:25 pm »

That is one first and the right to move up a few spots probably. Not 2 firsts. That is for a guy who was an all-star and was playing really well at the time offensively at the time and is an elite defender (which Green is not).

1. Its a first which is most likely lottery (again. This by itself is more value then what i suggested in my trade.) and a swapping rights. Which can drastically change the position you are in and completely change the value of a pick. There can be a world of difference between a 16 pick and a 22.
Combine the value of these picks and its still more then 3 20+ first rounders.


2. Deng has NEVER been an elite defender. Ive loved Deng his entire career and always rooted for his success, but he has never, ever, ever, been considered an "elite" defender. At best, B+ with little versatility. Lets stop trying to puff this guy up. Defensively, him and Green are far more similar then you want to make them out to be. With the only difference really being their switch defenses, the fact that Green is a much better defensive 4, while Deng is a better defensive 2.

3. You do realize that in both all-star appearances, Deng and Green averaged very similar numbers. The only real difference being was Deng averaged about 3 pts LESS then what Green is currently averaging, and Deng played 10 minutes more then what Green is currently playing.

So again, we have a guy who is statistically superior to this all-star you're mentioning. Offensively, fairly similar except Green has a much better jump shot (check advanced shooting statistics) and can average more points in far less minutes. Defensively are on par with one another.
And you're suggesting that Deng's trade is of value and the trade i have for Green, is not.... stop and think about that just a few seconds. It really almost seems, in fact im pretty sure this is what youre doing, that you're hearing "3 picks" and thinking "OMG 3 TOP 5 PICKS?!?!"or "top 10" or whatever. Without even paying attention to the value, the already demonstrated factually value, of late first round picks and similar players. And again, bringing up Deng actually highlights exactly what im saying. If you want to suggest 1 lottery pick, 1 swap and 2 seconds for Green, im all for it. But they dont have a lottery pick, do they?


You are asking Toronto to give up 3 first round picks, one of which could be in the lottery,

Pay attention, ive gone over this before. Please.....please...please pay attention.
NONE can be in the lottery. The Knicks swap is for the "least favorable", which means the Knicks get to keep their pick.
ALL THREE PICKS WILL BE 20+. Again, why i keep having to repeat this stuff, i dont know. So please pay attention, statistically at best, they have about a 70% chance of landing ONE starting quality player between all three picks. Meaning the other two simply go to waste.
And you're *** tell me, that is not worth Green? That its over-payment for Green? The CHANCE at a starting quality player, not the guarantee (which we see with every other trade ive highlighted) or the 70-80% chance with a lottery...


and nice big man in Amir Johnson for an above average combo forward and the right to pay Gerald Wallace for another season and a half. Toronto would never do that. Like I said before, if they aren't already a championship contender, trading for Jeff Green doesn't put them over the top.

Amir Johnson is at best an overpaid second (but really should be third) string PF/C who is expiring.
When GWall is an upgrade over Amir, you know its serious.

The Raptors are FAR from contending, lets not kid ourselves with this. They are not even contenders in the East, let alone going against whoever comes out of the West in a 7 game series. They would get demolished. But that is not even a concern because they wont get that far with two guard options and on off depth.
But yes, Jeff Green would help put them over that top. Him and GWall added to this team, through this trade where they give up minimal depth players, would make them favorites in the east. And they could actually deal with the Bulls, Cavs, Indy (who dont count them out. They are already on pace for the playoffs and wil probably get PG back before PO time), Heat if they can stay healthy, Wizards, Detroit now looks good after removing Smith and even Hornets have been improving over time.
Every single team i listed there has a superior roster, superior coaching (except Cavs. But i think LBJ could take out the Raptors on his own), superior depth and superior experience.
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« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2014, 07:56:30 am »

1. Its a first which is most likely lottery (again. This by itself is more value then what i suggested in my trade.) and a swapping rights. Which can drastically change the position you are in and completely change the value of a pick. There can be a world of difference between a 16 pick and a 22.
Combine the value of these picks and its still more then 3 20+ first rounders.
If the Kings keep sucking the pick might also retain it's protection and if the Bulls don't get it by 2017 it becomes a 2nd rounder. Keep in mind this trade was done before last season, when the Kings were still generally terrible, so the Bulls weren't even sure if they would get the pick when they made the trade. Right now the swap with Cleveland would net the Bulls a whopping 5 spots, from 25 to 20. Still a "useless" pick in the 20s.

You are severely underrating the value of even a late first round pick before the draft. Those picks can turn in to really good players if you scout carefully and find a good fit. Sometimes there are complete wiffs, but most teams would find at least 2 rotations guys with those 3 picks, and maybe even a starter. Looking back at past drafts, there have been at least 1 or 2 guys per draft in that range who have started in this league, sometimes even more than that. Guys like Serge Ibaka, Jimmy Butler, Taj Gibson, Arron Afflalo, and Nic Batum have all been picked in that 20-30 range.
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2. Deng has NEVER been an elite defender...he has never, ever, ever, been considered an "elite" defender.
Deng is (was?) an elite wing defender. That is the first thing anyone says about him. He may be past his prime, and maybe it was just because of his time in Chicago, but he's fared pretty well in Miami on that side as well. MAYBE Green can handle 4s better because of his size, but Deng beats him against 1s, 2s, and 3s.
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NONE can be in the lottery. The Knicks swap is for the "least favorable", which means the Knicks get to keep their pick.
It is the least favorable of the Knicks' pick and Denver's pick. Both teams are struggling and there is a chance Denver tries to rebuild. It can be in the lottery.
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Amir Johnson is at best an overpaid second (but really should be third) string PF/C who is expiring.
When GWall is an upgrade over Amir, you know its serious.
Perhaps he is overpaid, but he is a nice complementary big man who plays solid defense, shoots 57% from the field, and is slowly expanding his range. He is not a throw in. He is certainly much better than Gerald Wallace at this point in their careers.
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The Raptors are FAR from contending, lets not kid ourselves with this. They are not even contenders in the East, let alone going against whoever comes out of the West in a 7 game series. They would get demolished. But that is not even a concern because they wont get that far with two guard options and on off depth.
They are currently first in the East with one of their top players (I would say Lowry is best right now) out. They have recent wins over multiple western conference contenders.
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But yes, Jeff Green would help put them over that top. Him and GWall added to this team, through this trade where they give up minimal depth players, would make them favorites in the east.
You are overrating Jeff Green's impact. He is putting up good numbers on a bad team. He isn't the savior to a team doomed to a first round exit (which Toronto is not). Gerald Wallace in his current state adds nothing other than unnecessary salary cap burden. Toronto laughs and hangs up.
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knightofdreamz
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« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2014, 05:06:29 pm »

You are severely underrating the value of even a late first round pick before the draft. Those picks can turn in to really good players if you scout carefully and find a good fit. Sometimes there are complete wiffs, but most teams would find at least 2 rotations guys with those 3 picks, and maybe even a starter. Looking back at past drafts, there have been at least 1 or 2 guys per draft in that range who have started in this league, sometimes even more than that. Guys like Serge Ibaka, Jimmy Butler, Taj Gibson, Arron Afflalo, and Nic Batum have all been picked in that 20-30 range.

1. No, i actually think ive done a fantastic job of showing you the value of later picks when involved in a trade like this.
Again, lets say 1 lottery pick equals 2 20+ picks. This is essentially what is happening in this trade, and most people would actually argue that trade would still be unfair for the team with the lottery pick.

2. If we have established that a guy like Green is worth at least 1 lottery pick, and that lottery pick we know fairly certain, is not going to happen. Then what do we make work value wise? Obviously, if you have picks that will be later in the first, you include those. As we have seen, and i have shown you over and over again, is the value of similar players and what happens in trades.
I am 100% going by trades we see on a regular basis in the NBA, you are going by how you feel, which is obviously extremely flawed.  

3. Yes, we all know the players that have come out of the 20-30 range, that does nothing to highlight the fact that your chances of even getting a role player, are drastically reduced.
If you are going to highlight the few and far between players, then you might as well say "We can take him and give you cap, because with cap the Magic were able to sign undrafted Ben Wallace. See, see what you can do with cap and undrafted players?!?! Clearly its of value!"

You cant take the exception to the rule, then apply it as the rule.
This is why i made their chances of landing a starting quality player very clear when it came to the three picks. Statistically and percentage wise, they will get 1 starting player out of those 3 20+ picks. And starting player can mean anything, it could be KD or Thabo.


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Deng is (was?) an elite wing defender. That is the first thing anyone says about him. He may be past his prime, and maybe it was just because of his time in Chicago, but he's fared pretty well in Miami on that side as well.


I don't know where you get this. Not even Bulls fans suggest he has ever been an elite wing defender. And in terms of defensive efficiency, he's average and actually worse than Green. So... i mean.... understand that my compromise here is ive been watching both players their entire career and am willing to say that the statistics dont tell the whole story. And that works in favor for Deng.


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It is the least favorable of the Knicks' pick and Denver's pick.


Okay, so we now have what will amount to a mid teen pick (IMO worse, they are really not far out of the playoffs given how much time there is left) with two 20+ picks for a guy who is playing better then the "All-Star" who got more................... You really don't get whats being pointed out here?

BTW, im not addressing your denver comments. Youre clearly not paying attention to them and the fact that they are now starting to get their injured players back and get back on track.


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They are currently first in the East with one of their top players (I would say Lowry is best right now) out.


Which has nothing to do with the fact that lesser teams will be targeting them in the playoffs, because they know they are undermanned.
The EXACT same thing we saw last season. And you could have said the exact same thing last season "oh, they are a three seed, blah blah blah contenders blah blah blah", does not mean they are a playoff ready team.
The Playoffs and the regular season, two entirely different beasts. And again, what we will see is lesser seeds target the Raptors because they know they can knock them out in the first round. Because come playoff time, that "depth" (which, i hesitate to call it depth) does not matter unless you have a full starting 5 ahead of them. Which yes, they would have if they had another serious option.

Try to understand that what happened last season in the playoffs to the Raptors was not a fluke or random acts by other teams.


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They have recent wins over multiple western conference contenders.You are overrating Jeff Green's impact.


So lets clarify something here.
Youre saying he is not a 2nd or 3rd option on a team? A guy averaging 20ppg in 30 minutes, on a team that is even intentionally tanking...... and im overrating the role he can play on a good team? Are you being serious right now?


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He isn't the savior to a team doomed to a first round exit (which Toronto is not).


Until they show different, you saying "which toronto is not" is just you saying that and there is absolutely nothing supporting it.
I don't care how you feel, i want you to use facts to back up what youre saying. And you're not doing that. You're attempting to show that Green is not worth the suggested trade... by bringing up a lesser player who was traded for more...... bringing up that same lesser player as valuable to a team, while Green, again, better....... i just don't get it. Stop telling us how you feel and start using your brain to show these things.
Ive done a very,very, very good job of showing you players of similar value to Green and what they command in a trade.
Ive done a very very very good job of showing you how even the players you think are worth it, are lesser than Green and still commanded more... But what? You don't want to admit that Green is actually a great fit that can take a team over that hump? I dont get it. Its now you telling me how you feel and if that is all that's going to happen, dont reply.

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Gerald Wallace in his current state adds nothing other than unnecessary salary cap burden. Toronto laughs and hangs up.

Given the Raptors inability to bring anyone in of value, i'd actually think that the Raptors would toss in a blow job for a trade like this. Guess what? They're not getting anyone better anytime soon and they're clearly lacking to make any kind of significant playoff run... so......... ya. If you cant separate hype (100% the Raptors this season and last) from actual basketball analysis, then dont talk to me.
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Fitz
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« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2014, 06:17:14 pm »

Perhaps the Deng trade wasn't quite analogous and it distracted from my point that Toronto would not do this trade.
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So lets clarify something here.
Youre saying he is not a 2nd or 3rd option on a team? A guy averaging 20ppg in 30 minutes, on a team that is even intentionally tanking...... and im overrating the role he can play on a good team? Are you being serious right now?
MCW put up 17/6/6 last year. He would barely play on most contenders. It is easy to put up big counting stats on a bad team that plays fast (Boston is 2nd in pace this year).
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Given the Raptors inability to bring anyone in of value, i'd actually think that the Raptors would toss in a blow job for a trade like this. Guess what? They're not getting anyone better anytime soon and they're clearly lacking to make any kind of significant playoff run... so......... ya. If you cant separate hype (100% the Raptors this season and last) from actual basketball analysis, then dont talk to me.
You are equally guilty of hyping up Jeff Green. He is an above average scorer that is a shaky shooter from deep. Terrance Ross is a much better fit in their starting lineup for his shooting abilities. The Raptors have 3 very good scorers, shooters around them, a blossoming big in JV, and bench depth. If you don't think that even gets them in contention in the East, that's your opinion. I think they are just fine and are alongside Atlanta as favorites for the "2nd best team in the East" mantle (maybe I'm biased, but I think Chicago is #1 right now). They have a very good chance to at least make the conference finals. Which is great for a team people thought was going to tank just a year ago.

Masai Ujiri makes some crazy deals, but he is not giving up multiple assets (however worthless you think they are) for Jeff Green.

And with that: this thread mind-numbingly stupid, the 2nd trade posted would never happen (OP is possible, but not likely), and I'm out.
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